Requirements for Daycare

[NeverGreen]

Hey all,

Just a few questions here, hoping someone can help me out with some answers.

First off Im in Alberta, I know the laws are different all across Canada but I cant see them being that different.

1. Daycare...I am paying for daycare, and not entitled to a subsidy based on the amount I make. I pay 75% of section expenses. Mom went and threw the kid in daycare without ever asking me my opinions or thoughts. This in and of itself isnt really a problem, I understand people need daycare. What gets me is she has never provided a reason as to why she needs daycare, and when I asked what she was taking in school I recieved 'I dont see the need to tell you'. Am I entitled to some sort of disclosure proving she is either in full time school or full time work before I have to pay? I dont even know why she needs daycare and wont provide any reason short of "Im in school".

2. Diapers for daycare, I am also providing diapers for daycare, although Ive had a few people tell me this should be coming out of the child support. Not much of an issue for me however I seek some clarity on the issue, for the record I pay the full table support.

3. She also claims I can not go anywhere near the daycare unless its on my parenting time, however I was under the impression that guardianship gave me the right to call or go to the daycare anytime I needed. For example (and this is why im asking)....I had to go to the daycare to drop off the cheque for their services on a day I had no visitation. I didnt want to pay the late fee. I saw no harm in this, however it touched off a rather large problem for her, and she tells me that under no circumstance am I to be going to the daycare unless it is my designated parenting time. I find it odd I can call and make appointments with doctors/teachers etc. yet for some reason I am extremely restricted with regards to daycare as I am the NCP.

Can anyone shed some light on these issues for me?

Thanks in advance

[standing on the sidelines]

1. she should provide some sort of proof that she needs the daycare and isnt just using it as a babysitting service so she gets time without the kid to do whatever she wants (shopping, visiting and things like that)

2. Diapers are covered under CS

3. Unless the daycare provider has told you that you cannot be there, your ex cannot dictate it. Dropping off a check is a valid reason to be there.

[Mess]

I agree with the above, but would add that at our daycare, there were mirrored windows where the parents could spend time watching the children at play. The daycare also encouraged us to come in and share any skills, arts, music, etc. that we were skilled at with the children. You are the child's parent, you have reason to be involved here.

Maybe your daycare isn't as open and involved as mine was, but you don't have to justify WANTING to be involved in your child's day. That is a natural part of being a parent.

[SadAndTired]

Weird that she will let you near the daycare if it is your parenting time. Obviously she is worried it will be considered access.

Would you "allow" her to dictate your attendance/participation at a school function? Daycare will soon be replaced by school. You don't want her to say the same about school. I would simply ignore her claim that you cannot go to the daycare on "her" days.

As far as the diapers, a child wears a specific amount of diapers daily. There is little variation. Diapers are a necessity of the child (not of the daycare). So, if CS covers diapers while the child is home, diapers are covered by CS while the child is at daycare. She is trying to get you to spend more money but that is what I would counter her argument with. Diapers are already covered by CS regardless of where the child wears them.

Don't know about the legalities of proof of need of the daycare other than my lawyer told me that daycare has to be required due to education or employment.

[HappyDays]

Daycare is fine as long as the parent is in school or work. However simply saying "I'm in school" is not good enough. Complete details don't have to be given, but there should be some sort of proof to show they are in school and which days they attend. No proof = no daycare payment.

[NeverGreen]

Okay a little update here...

At the exchange she showed me a piece of paper claiming it was the proof I require. However, she wouldnt let me keep the paper, and she refused to email me a copy stating she didnt have to. The "schedule" (and I say that because it doesnt look official) only said 'May' on it....and I have been paying since November without any proof.

Am I entitled to a legitimate copy? Anyone have advice on how to proceed?

I was thinking of telling her when she shows me proof for 'June' as well Ill gladly make a payment....and I would also like disclosure regarding the November - April portion of the payments.

Can anyone advise on this aspect of the situation?

Thanks

[Tayken]

1. Daycare...I am paying for daycare, and not entitled to a subsidy based on the amount I make. I pay 75% of section expenses. Mom went and threw the kid in daycare without ever asking me my opinions or thoughts. This in and of itself isnt really a problem, I understand people need daycare. What gets me is she has never provided a reason as to why she needs daycare, and when I asked what she was taking in school I received 'I dont see the need to tell you'. Am I entitled to some sort of disclosure proving she is either in full time school or full time work before I have to pay? I dont even know why she needs daycare and wont provide any reason short of "Im in school".

"Parental Autonomy"

Many custody and access assessors talk to this concept although it is not well defined. This is the concept that when a child is residing with a specific parent that parent and child relationship should autonomous of the other parent. This is the core concept behind "parallel parenting". It is also about disengaging from the other parent.

The parent may be attempting to expressed their autonomy from you in a negative way. But, there could be merit to their position but, that depends on the conflict between the parents before the position becomes relevant.

Considering you have stated a number of times that you don't care etc... It doesn't seem to be that case but, be mindful of it at all times. Parents who are separated and / or divorced often "over communicate". Especially if they have minor children. Maybe you are over-communicating with the other parent on topics that are just not necessary to communicate about?

With regards to the disclosures regarding enrollment of parent's schooling. It really isn't your business unless there is an Application before the courts still open and/or you are trying to establish child support payments and impute an income. Really, what she takes in school isn't truly your business other than the fact that everyone is expected to be self supporting in our society and the family courts expect this of both parents (to varying degrees and based on situation).

If you are paying for her schooling then, you may have a claim to knowledge of the information for the purposes of paying the expense. But, it would be limited to the financial obligation you were ordered to or agreed to pay and solely for the purposes of paying that expense.

The real question you have to ask yourself is... Why do you care what she is taking?

2. Diapers for daycare, I am also providing diapers for daycare, although Ive had a few people tell me this should be coming out of the child support. Not much of an issue for me however I seek some clarity on the issue, for the record I pay the full table support.

It should be covered by CS. But, rather than creating conflict and using it as a point to debate and create conflict over it may be both financially cheaper and emotionally better for you just to pay for them. Diapers are not forever. This may be a point you have to take the high road rather than debate a topic that you are factually correct on but, would only damage the parental relationship should it be communicated. (Choose your battles, this one in my personal opinion isn't worth the effort.

3. She also claims I can not go anywhere near the daycare unless its on my parenting time, however I was under the impression that guardianship gave me the right to call or go to the daycare anytime I needed. For example (and this is why im asking)....I had to go to the daycare to drop off the cheque for their services on a day I had no visitation. I didnt want to pay the late fee. I saw no harm in this, however it touched off a rather large problem for her, and she tells me that under no circumstance am I to be going to the daycare unless it is my designated parenting time. I find it odd I can call and make appointments with doctors/teachers etc. yet for some reason I am extremely restricted with regards to daycare as I am the NCP.

See my above comment about "parental autonomy". The example you gave is a bit extreme and I agree with your position. Also, I agree with Mess' position as well.

What you should be mindful of is that you shouldn't remove the child from daycare when the child is not residing with you. If you have to do this, make sure you have consent from the other parent. It would be a violation of the parental autonomy to remove the child from the daycare. But, I see no harm in what you did. The other parent is possibly over-emotional and over-anxious / over-protective of their personal situation.

My recommendation to you would be to disengage from the other parent as much as possible and focus on your time with the child in question mostly. It is hard as you have a child in diaper and communications need to be good between parents but, they don't have to be "magical".

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Tayken]

Weird that she will let you near the daycare if it is your parenting time. Obviously she is worried it will be considered access.

I disagree with this statement. It isn't "weird" nor is it "obvious" as to the anxieties that may possibly be driving her conduct. An example of something possibly "weird" or possibly "obvious" is when a parent comes to this site representing that their doctor told them to restrict access to the other parent...

It could be fear of many things that have driven the comments to you OP. Also, one would question why any parent would fear increased access with the other parent. As the other parent in the matter is in school (and possibly not earning an income) an increase in access would not change the amount of child support and S.7. Even with 50-50 shared custody when one parent is making 0$ the other parent pays full table support under Section 9 set-off method.

I hypothesize that the other parent is possibly expressing her parental autonomy in possibly an anxious and possibly conflicted way. This isn't bad nor is it "weird" if you read the materials regarding this topic. It is actually a quite common pattern of behavior between parents. The other parent is trying to exhert their control possibly while the child is legally residing with them. It may not be in the best way to express it but, it is very common. Simply put, both parents may need to disengage from each other on minor topics and establish a better routine more in parallel to each other.

Would you "allow" her to dictate your attendance/participation at a school function? Daycare will soon be replaced by school. You don't want her to say the same about school. I would simply ignore her claim that you cannot go to the daycare on "her" days.

I agree. For someone to get upset over a check being dropped off is rather irrational and may possibly be driven by an underlying parental anxiety. Irrational fears are common in situations like this... We could hypothesize that she may be afraid of a lot of things but, it doesn't really add much value on how to resolve the problem you are facing OP.

The best advice I can offer is to not remove the child from daycare during the other parent's scheduled residential (visitation / access) time.

You may be dealing with someone who may possibly be an overprotective parent. Have you ever considered that perspective OP?

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Mess]

With regards to the disclosures regarding enrollment of parent's schooling. It really isn't your business unless there is an Application before the courts still open and/or you are trying to establish child support payments and impute an income. Really, what she takes in school isn't truly your business other than the fact that everyone is expected to be self supporting in our society and the family courts expect this of both parents (to varying degrees and based on situation).

A small point here. Child care is a section 7 expense if it is required because the parent needs it because they are working during that time, or enrolled in a full-time educational program.

Child care is not a section 7 expense if it is for "babysitting" for a night out, or because of enrollment in a casual class like arts and crafts that isn't part of a diploma program.

If it isn't a section 7 expense, then the parent needing the care should pay 100% of the cost, since it is incurred on their own time. The question of whether the parent is enrolled in a full-time program is relevant. They should be providing confirmation on school letterhead, or an official printout of their schedule. These are available at no cost through student services at any institution. If the parent is co-operative, there is no reason not to provide it. The only reason not to would be out of hostility.

[dad2bandm]

2. Diapers for daycare, I am also providing diapers for daycare, although Ive had a few people tell me this should be coming out of the child support. Not much of an issue for me however I seek some clarity on the issue, for the record I pay the full table support.

I ran into this issue too, back when it was needed. As others have already stated, diapers are part of the full table child support you pay. What else is child support for, if not diapers? lol.

My ex would send me hostile emails because I was not "helping" with our child's care, because I was not helping pay for diapers. Of course, that was not true - I was paying her support, and also paying for the diapers needed at my own house, because ex would not forward any, for when child came to my house.

The child support recipient should be paying the diaper cost.

I guess if it's "not much of an issue" for you, you can continue to pay for them, but now you know, child support covers this. A box of diapers is expensive. Instead of paying for them, imagine if you put that money into an education savings plan instead, and let it grow. Your child would have a nice tidy sum, when it comes to post secondary school. :-)

[Tayken]

I guess if it's "not much of an issue" for you, you can continue to pay for them, but now you know, child support covers this. A box of diapers is expensive. Instead of paying for them, imagine if you put that money into an education savings plan instead, and let it grow. Your child would have a nice tidy sum, when it comes to post secondary school. :-)

Well, "crunchy" people will tell you that disposable diapers are expensive and not environmentally friendly. The will also tell you that cloth diapers are cheaper, reusable and more environmentally friendly.

You could always take the "crunchy" road and recommend politely that maybe, due to the expense and impact to the environment that the child should be using cloth diapers. In fact, some of the "crunchy" people will tell you they are better for the child medically although, I can't confirm or deny their position as I don't particularly focus on diaper decisions based on "evidence based medicine". Just family law related dirty diaper stuff.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[NeverGreen]

Thanks for the reply guys.

Im not trying to cause conflict, I just feel that for $650 a month (which is a good deal here), I should be able to know for a fact that she is in full time school. She does have a habit of exaggerating and manipulating things to her benefit.

Unfortunately putting him in daycare without even telling me (she just gave me a bill one day), wont tell me what shes taking in school (Not a big deal again either I was more looking as to whether it was full time or not) and the way she 'presented' her schedule (it only said May) on it and believe me...it did not look official....just makes me question. If it was legit I dont see why she couldnt just email me a copy of the schedule indicating the months she was going etc. If she needs it Ill pay for it, but if she doesnt...thats a lot of money I could be using on something else (like the child for instance).

As is it looks like Ill have to request the appropriate disclosure from her lawyer and start getting a paper trail ready because I have a feeling she isnt enrolled in full time school, she somehow still manages to be at the daycare every time I am to pick up the child.

I guess the main point is that if shes legitimately in full time school and needs daycare, why the shroud of secrecy?

[Tayken]

Im not trying to cause conflict, I just feel that for $650 a month (which is a good deal here), I should be able to know for a fact that she is in full time school. She does have a habit of exaggerating and manipulating things to her benefit.

Careful with your "feelings". You have stated an "emotional reason" as to why you want something. But, justices do not make orders on "feelings". They rely upon Laws and our system of case law.

It is not to say it is bad to feel this way. I would just keep statements like that out of any affidavit materials or argument before a court.

You may not be "trying" consciously to create conflict but, your request is met with extreme resistance which creates conflict. So, by asking for the information, if not court ordered or required under the Rules governing the proceedings... It just creates conflict.

A good book to read is "High Conflict People in Legal Disputes" written by Mr. William Eddy. His other books "BIFF" and "It's All Your Fault!" are also excellent.

HCI High Conflict Speakers, Books, Consultations

Unfortunately putting him in daycare without even telling me (she just gave me a bill one day), wont tell me what shes taking in school (Not a big deal again either I was more looking as to whether it was full time or not) and the way she 'presented' her schedule (it only said May) on it and believe me...it did not look official....just makes me question.

Breaking it down.

1. The other parent unilaterally enrolled the child in daycare. The argument for her doing this: It is her time with the child and because of the conflict first right of refusal would never be considered by a justice. Were you required to use this daycare provider by the other parent?

2. The other parent isn't obligated to tell you what she is taking in school. Depending on the proceedings the information may form part of a financial disclosure per the Rules (Rule 13 in Ontario). The child is not in danger if she is attending school or by what she is taking in school. So why do you ultimately care? That kind of communications with the other parent ended abruptly when you started living separate and apart. Furthermore, she wasn't obligated to tell you this when you were in a relationship either.

3. The receipt should have the tax information on it or at minimum the GST number. You are not obligated to pay for "babysitting" services paid in cash. Ask for a better receipt from the service provider, their GST number etc...

If it was legit I dont see why she couldnt just email me a copy of the schedule indicating the months she was going etc. If she needs it Ill pay for it, but if she doesnt...thats a lot of money I could be using on something else (like the child for instance).

You should be recommending that parental communications move to the software platform known as Our Family Wizard. (Tools to simplify shared child custody. - Our Family Wizard - child custody, parenting time) Search this form and the internet for more information on OFW. (You can search CanLII too.)

As is it looks like Ill have to request the appropriate disclosure from her lawyer and start getting a paper trail ready because I have a feeling she isnt enrolled in full time school, she somehow still manages to be at the daycare every time I am to pick up the child.

The evidence is moot though. She is obligated under the Rules (if you are before the courts) to provide full and frank financial disclosure. So, it will be a natural course of law as your matters proceed that she will have to meet the obligation to the Rules for financial disclosure.

I guess the main point is that if shes legitimately in full time school and needs daycare, why the shroud of secrecy?

Because the "shroud of secrecy" is causing you grief and possibly anxiety. It pushes your button. Causes you to make mistakes and demand things that are unreasonable. Possibly because you are easy to manipulate, are possibly demanding and will some how screw up and give her evidence that you are "controlling" by requesting the information.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[stripes]

It seems legitimate to me to ask for confirmation that she was enrolled in school full time, if that's why the expenses of daycare are being incurred. You don't need to know what courses she was taking or what her schedule is or her transcript or anything else about it.

I work at a university - the registrar's office can provide statements to the effect that so and so was enrolled as a full-time student during such and such a time. Students request these all the time (most often for student loan deferments when they need to prove that they're still enrolled and not in a position to start paying back). It should be easy for her to get this piece of paper, which should satisfy your concerns without providing information about her that really isn't relevant (like what degree she's taking, what her marks are, etc).