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  • Oral cost submissions

    Here we go...

    I had an appearance before Judge today dealing with three issues

    1. Final order draft dispute. Judge agree with some of my corrections and suggest to back off on whole other number of tweaks I suggest. So be it - I will prepare new draft -nice and picture perfect )

    2. Ex's lawyer tried to get him self of the record. Even before I open my mouse Judge said what I was about to tell - not before we deal with cost.

    3. Oral cost submissions (scary new area for me) going to be on December. Judge also said that I have to keep in mind that there is no monies in there (looking at my ex).

    I know that but it's fundamental to justice system and to people who think they can use it for their personal revenge ... without even talking trial what I did by myself and still entitled for some cost) I spent ~10k in real monies for all that nightmare. So what I should do? Just give up so she will be back to court in no time with some new bullshit (she already confirm it in email - battle just begin and bla bla bla)?

    I think I should try. It up to judge anyway bu if I will not try he will not have even opportunity to do something. And I think base on his message trough all ruling without cost this message will not be strong enough.

    Any comments?

    oh almost forget. Ex's made an offer regarding cost - $300 payable over the year ... that was tempting but I did not agree...

  • #2
    Originally posted by WorkingDAD View Post
    Here we go...

    I had an appearance before Judge today dealing with three issues

    1. Final order draft dispute. Judge agree with some of my corrections and suggest to back off on whole other number of tweaks I suggest. So be it - I will prepare new draft -nice and picture perfect )

    2. Ex's lawyer tried to get him self of the record. Even before I open my mouse Judge said what I was about to tell - not before we deal with cost.

    3. Oral cost submissions (scary new area for me) going to be on December. Judge also said that I have to keep in mind that there is no monies in there (looking at my ex).

    I know that but it's fundamental to justice system and to people who think they can use it for their personal revenge ... without even talking trial what I did by myself and still entitled for some cost) I spent ~10k in real monies for all that nightmare. So what I should do? Just give up so she will be back to court in no time with some new bullshit (she already confirm it in email - battle just begin and bla bla bla)?

    I think I should try. It up to judge anyway bu if I will not try he will not have even opportunity to do something. And I think base on his message trough all ruling without cost this message will not be strong enough.

    Any comments?

    oh almost forget. Ex's made an offer regarding cost - $300 payable over the year ... that was tempting but I did not agree...
    That is not entirely true. You can not get costs for you're own time. But from what i understand you can get out of pocket...mileage, photocopies, though not court time, preptime that if you had to take time off of work in order to get any administrative done. I would also ask for service fee's. I would also research your court appearances. Something is floating around that you maybe entitled to some of your appearances...but i forget the threshold or criteria.

    Also the judge may not be inclined to award costs but you just could become a precedent setting case for that reason.

    I agree their needs to be some sort of financial or punitive damages either in award to you or fine towards her. Especially where its been determined that she was such an idiot.

    When there are no damages/fines or costs I believe that it just enables the offending behavior.

    Comment


    • #3
      I would argue that since the amount usually awarded to self reps is way less than actual lawyers you should get this amount as you acted in good faith to resolve an unjust situation. I would also make the argument that despite her having little money if the judge does nothing it will mean the court accepts frivolous wastes of court time. I used section 19.06 of the small claims court in a debt case and they gave me an award on this. They can then say it's not real 'costs' but is a deterrent to people. I would also argue to the judge if he doesnt make the award he would effectively support people with limited money to act improperly. Hope this helps.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by LostFather View Post
        That is not entirely true. You can not get costs for you're own time. But from what i understand you can get out of pocket...mileage, photocopies, though not court time, preptime that if you had to take time off of work in order to get any administrative done. I would also ask for service fee's. I would also research your court appearances. Something is floating around that you maybe entitled to some of your appearances...but i forget the threshold or criteria.

        Also the judge may not be inclined to award costs but you just could become a precedent setting case for that reason.

        I agree their needs to be some sort of financial or punitive damages either in award to you or fine towards her. Especially where its been determined that she was such an idiot.

        When there are no damages/fines or costs I believe that it just enables the offending behavior.
        from what I know "you are not entitled for time what you would devote to case anyway" (like I have to be in court even with lawyer) but I entitled for cost for what I did what lawyer would have to do otherwise. you also have to prove that you actually did it...

        and I did prove it for sure...

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by FaithandMorals View Post
          I would argue that since the amount usually awarded to self reps is way less than actual lawyers you should get this amount as you acted in good faith to resolve an unjust situation. I would also make the argument that despite her having little money if the judge does nothing it will mean the court accepts frivolous wastes of court time. I used section 19.06 of the small claims court in a debt case and they gave me an award on this. They can then say it's not real 'costs' but is a deterrent to people. I would also argue to the judge if he doesnt make the award he would effectively support people with limited money to act improperly. Hope this helps.
          something like that ?

          B.B. v. D.F. (No. 2), 1995 CanLII 3845 (ON CJ)

          Meagre financial resources do not automatically lead to a conclusion that costs should not be awarded, when costs are otherwise appropriate. If poverty were to have that effect, litigants of limited means would have free rein to pursue lengthy and unnecessary trials without any accountability for their conduct. (See, for instance, E.(H.) v. E.(A.) (No. 2), supra.) This is a particularly relevant factor if serious allegations have been floated and found unsubstantiated by the evidence. (See, for example, H.(P.) v. G.(D.) (No. 3), supra.)

          Comment


          • #6
            It is a hard hill to climb. I recall reading about a case where costs were addressed for dad. The judge took pity on mom. She admitted that she used her cs towards drug use and didn't have the money for costs. The judge actually bought the argument. Dad had access the typical eow and one overnight through the week. He asked that cs be suspended that he be given custody and take care of children etc. Remember, mom admitted using cs for her drugs...judge denied dads request no costs and cs was to continue going to mom. Crazy stuff.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by WorkingDAD View Post
              I think there are key words in this decision. Judge speaks about parties putting the best interests of the children before themselves and the award talking about incurred costs...this is to make you 'whole' in my understanding. Maybe I missed it, but did it address your time as costs?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by LostFather View Post
                I think there are key words in this decision. Judge speaks about parties putting the best interests of the children before themselves and the award talking about incurred costs...this is to make you 'whole' in my understanding. Maybe I missed it, but did it address your time as costs?
                key line here is
                Meagre financial resources do not automatically lead to a conclusion that costs should not be awarded, when costs are otherwise appropriate. If poverty were to have that effect, litigants of limited means would have free rein to pursue lengthy and unnecessary trials without any accountability for their conduct.
                it nothing about time
                that different area entitlement of cost for self-rep etc...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by LostFather View Post
                  It is a hard hill to climb. I recall reading about a case where costs were addressed for dad. The judge took pity on mom. She admitted that she used her cs towards drug use and didn't have the money for costs. The judge actually bought the argument. Dad had access the typical eow and one overnight through the week. He asked that cs be suspended that he be given custody and take care of children etc. Remember, mom admitted using cs for her drugs...judge denied dads request no costs and cs was to continue going to mom. Crazy stuff.
                  ok
                  I may be naive but from my point of view if judge thought that this case is not case for cost he would stated it in his ruling right away.

                  they do it, like "there will be not cost" or "this is not appropriate case for cost" etc..

                  but he did not
                  and he did not let her lawyer of the record before issue of cost resolved...

                  and one more things
                  today her lawyer said arguing why we have to finish this ASAP because his client want to retain new counsel... so she do have a money for new counsel right? It;s not going to be a Legal AID as far as I know...
                  Last edited by WorkingDAD; 11-25-2011, 09:27 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by WorkingDAD View Post
                    Exactly something like that. I would aldo tell the judge (provide the proof you have) that she has already said she will continue the fight and plans to appeal. That should be the extra incentive the judge needs. At least, I would hope so.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Was her current lawyer legal aid? Or did she pay for her lawyer?

                      I would think paying a lawyer and losing when your ex self reps and wins is enough of a penalty/deterrent

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by billm View Post
                        Was her current lawyer legal aid? Or did she pay for her lawyer?

                        I would think paying a lawyer and losing when your ex self reps and wins is enough of a penalty/deterrent
                        Legal AID

                        I am not sure I would agree with your approach. If that would be a case then is no responsibility for other party looses and that is what should make people think twice and be stimulated to avoid litigation and try to settle very hard..

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Offer to settle...

                          So day x coming.

                          number of sleepless nights put into material preparation. Books of authorities done. (16 cases cover following area, self-rep and cost, offers to settle, ability to pay, bad faith, legal aid clients)

                          cost outline - almost done. with all receipts and everything ~40p. and yes I decided to include list of all books what I went through from library - just in case if someone will start talking that it unreal that I spend 100ssss hours for all that trial stuff...

                          cost-submissions - basically speaking by cases on each point of rule 24 - !20-25 pages...

                          so lets hope it all not for nothing.

                          But after all this work I got yesterday offer to settle cost. That very tempting actually. so I am offered $500 to be payed $100 a month starting 2014. Isn't it insulting ? it's not like I was not insulted enough for thous two years...

                          But there is a positive sigh too. They agreed they own me monies. That first step
                          Last edited by WorkingDAD; 12-03-2011, 05:34 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            cost and bancruptcy

                            here is update:

                            cost submissions delivered.
                            for now I can say with 95% that there will be order for mom to pay.
                            for 85% I would say it will be more than 10k

                            I also believe there are reasons to expect that mom will found herself in "bad faith" category what is important for future cases.

                            Judge also said that the hardest part here it's to make sure that I will get any monies. He suspect that she will just file for bankruptcy after.

                            and as he said:

                            I hate bankruptcy. It's assault on our system.

                            and I would agree with him on that one.

                            Judge give other party till Friday to come up with some offer to me. If nothing happened he will make his ruling in next couple of weeks.

                            will see.

                            you can make your bets what outcome we will have

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Does she have assets outside of Canada? I know it is unlikely to help but may, may be a thought.

                              If you get a judgement under $25,000, you will then have to pursue it in Small Claims and you can garnish her accounts for 7 years. You can then apply to have the garnishment extended and you can do this every 7 years.

                              I know it's a big pain and drama and may be sucky given she is still the mother of your child but those are at least some of the options available to you. Finally, it costs money to go bankrupt.

                              Hope this works out WD.

                              Comment

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