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  • Wording in court order

    Hey Everyone. Haven't been on here for a while. Reading a few good posts right now!
    Our question/concern is the wording in a court order: The other party is not willing to give us copies of some needed documents. The court order states "Notarised copies of (list of documents) will be provided to George". Our understanding is that the other party involved is, by court order, obliged to give George copies of the docs. Are we right?
    The other party is 1. Not willing to give/make copies and 2. Not willing to pay for the service fee.
    We looked online and on the forum but couldn't find much.
    TIA.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Ottawasm View Post
    ...
    Our question/concern is the wording in a court order: The other party is not willing to give us copies of some needed documents. The court order states "Notarised copies of (list of documents) will be provided to George". Our understanding is that the other party involved is, by court order, obliged to give George copies of the docs. Are we right?...
    If a court order specifically states, that Party A is to provide notarized documents to Party B, and Party A is refusing to do so, then they are in contempt of that order.

    Does the order specify a date by which the documents are to be provided?
    Do you have written (email) correspondence, to the other party, where they say:
    - "I'm not giving you that info"
    - "I don't care what the order states, you're not getting the info".

    Seems pretty straight-forward here.
    What kind of documents are these?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by dad2bandm View Post
      If a court order specifically states, that Party A is to provide notarized documents to Party B, and Party A is refusing to do so, then they are in contempt of that order.

      Does the order specify a date by which the documents are to be provided?
      Do you have written (email) correspondence, to the other party, where they say:
      - "I'm not giving you that info"
      - "I don't care what the order states, you're not getting the info".

      Seems pretty straight-forward here.
      What kind of documents are these?
      Thank you dad2bandm.
      We're talking about copies of passport, health card, Birth certificates, etc. It is a high conflict relationship, the Judge has added that clause so that each household have copies to minimize conflict and communication.

      The Order does not state by which date they are to be provided unfortunately. We did request them by writing 3 times. To which the other party has answered: 1, That it was not necessary to be notarised copies. 2. That she did not think he really wanted copies. 3. That she doesn't have the money or time to do this.

      We started preparing the contempt papers, but want to make sure we're not losing our and the court's time.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Ottawasm View Post
        ...We're talking about copies of passport, health card, Birth certificates, etc. It is a high conflict relationship, the Judge has added that clause so that each household have copies to minimize conflict and communication.

        The Order does not state by which date they are to be provided unfortunately. We did request them by writing 3 times. To which the other...
        When was the order issued, and over what period of time, have you made these requests?

        What custody do you have? Do you have joint custody? I was able to get a copy of a birth certificate myself, because I have joint custody (and the other parent won't provide such documents to myself - though she is also ordered to as well).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by dad2bandm View Post
          When was the order issued, and over what period of time, have you made these requests?

          What custody do you have? Do you have joint custody? I was able to get a copy of a birth certificate myself, because I have joint custody (and the other parent won't provide such documents to myself - though she is also ordered to as well).
          Same, Joint custody. I'll look into ordering a copy of the birth certificate ourselves then! And the Final order was done August 15th. We asked in Sept, Oct, and last written request was 2 weeks ago to which we asked to be provided with the documents by November 24th, or to tell us when we can expect to receive them if that deadline did not work for them. We really tried to be the nice guys but not luck. That's when she answered she didn't have the money or time to do that.
          Thanks for the input about the certificate, def looking into it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Have you asked for a simple photocopy to start and see where that goes?

            I think the whole point was for all to have a copy and if you can start by getting that then its a step in the right direction. If OP refuses then there is an issue.

            She can take a photo of it with her phone and send it. Most cities have this service availible at around 40$. That not expensive...

            Comment


            • #7
              forget the contempt (unless you want to go to court at least 3 more times). People can easily avoid contempt. All they have to do is state that they a) forgot, b) didn't understand and were waiting for instruction from their rabbi, c) didn't have the funds, d) didn't have the funds to retain a lawyer e) didn't understand the seriousness of the matter and so on.

              If Orders are ambiguous and do not contain specific dates (deadlines in the Order) then you're hooped. Judge can't find someone in contempt unless it is proven that individual intentionally disobeyed the order. This can be harder than you imagine to prove.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by good_mom View Post
                Have you asked for a simple photocopy to start and see where that goes?

                I think the whole point was for all to have a copy and if you can start by getting that then its a step in the right direction. If OP refuses then there is an issue.

                She can take a photo of it with her phone and send it. Most cities have this service availible at around 40$. That not expensive...
                We did a few months ago. She said we did not need any of these papers/cars. When we argued that we need the health card information in case something happens, she just texted the numbers. So yeah.. no coparenting at all on that side.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Here is one of many links for info on contempt in family law in Ontario:


                  https://flao.org/docs/contempt.doc

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by arabian View Post
                    forget the contempt (unless you want to go to court at least 3 more times). People can easily avoid contempt. All they have to do is state that they a) forgot, b) didn't understand and were waiting for instruction from their rabbi, c) didn't have the funds, d) didn't have the funds to retain a lawyer e) didn't understand the seriousness of the matter and so on.

                    If Orders are ambiguous and do not contain specific dates (deadlines in the Order) then you're hooped. Judge can't find someone in contempt unless it is proven that individual intentionally disobeyed the order. This can be harder than you imagine to prove.
                    Thanks Arabian, that's what we're concerned about. While doing the research I realised it's harder that it seems to have someone brought in for contempt. Our order is very specific on everything... except that. The other party always plays the dumb or poor cards too (while we have proof/pictures she posts online) that she isn't poor but as you said, it's a hard process. Def keeping that in mind.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      My ex was Ordered to produce documents for many years. He vacillated from changing legal counsel to being self-represented and back to having legal counsel. We had very specific wording in Order but he got away with it nevertheless for many years. Many family court judges just don't want to deal with it. Until we requested, and received, a case management judge he got away with it. Even in the end he didn't produce all of required documents and I had to finally throw in my hand because, as others have so wisely said in other posts on this forum, the end result we were seeking didn't exceed the cost of pursuing this.

                      Important fact is that the person in contempt ALWAYS is given an opportunity to purge their contempt.

                      Your situation could drag on for years by your ex simply producing some, but not all, of the required documents.

                      Very frustrating for you. I'm sure others on here can give you some ideas on how to get duplicate identification for your children.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Order your own birth ertificate and go to service ontario or equivilant and tell them you,lost the health card. They will issue a new one. Then She can ask you for it.

                        Passport. Well you only need that,if you are intending to travel. And I a, guessing if she agrees to the travel she will provide the passport.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Is this another example of a high anxiety person making something of nothing?

                          When you need the card, ask for it - if she refuses then deal with it.

                          Judges don't like hypothetical problems

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't see where you offered to pay for the copies? If it's a money issue for her, pay for them to get your documents no big deal.

                            I do agree with Links though, this isn't a hill worth dying on. Keep requesting the info via email, next time you are in court include in your motion or whatever that you be the one to hold onto the documents as she refuses to provide you with them.

                            I would request the health cards follow the children, don't worry about the birth certificate or passport those aren't needed day to day. Just ask that the health cards be provided on your time with the children.

                            My husbands ex was like that. Didn't want to provide birth certificates or anything to him either. No big deal. We ordered a long form for each child, which has much more info than the regular birth certificate

                            Comment

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