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  • Child support and budget

    Hi everyone! I am new here and could really use some advice.I live in Alberta. I have 2 children.One is in Jr.High School and the other will be 18 in May, still in High School but going to college in September. We have been divorced for 3 years. My ex has hired a lawyer and I am not in the financial position to do that. I work but my salary is not that high and he has a very good job in the Medical Profession.

    His lawyer told me to take the RESP money that I have saved for the girls and put it together with his. He makes 2.8 times the salary that I do. I don't have spousal support. I saved a little bit less than he has but I was told that we share eldest daughter's tuition exactly in half. Is this what is usually done?

    Also ex said that I need to make a budget showing what I pay all the time, each month for each girl from my child support. He wants an itemized list of their expenses. I have looked around and can't find anything where I am to give him a budget. My eldest Daughter has been accepted into a college very close to home and she will be living in the condo with me, just as she always has. He said that the budget will help determine how much support I get for the children. Its that true?

    Do I share RESP?
    Do I give him a list for daughter in Jr. High school for expenses and Child support?
    Do I give him a list for daughter over 18 who will go to the college full time and who will live a home?

    Grateful if anyone could answer my questions.

  • #2
    He's demanding way too much information, information that he has no right to ask for and that you have no requirement to provide.

    Usually, for post-secondary education, the tuition and other school-related expenses are considered section 7 (extraordinary) but are handled in a special way. Typically, the child is expected to pay for a third (summer jobs, scholarships earned, etc) and then the parents divide the remaining two thirds proportionally to their incomes (about 25% for you and 75% for him). If you have an RESP for the child, then I think that can be used for your share. I suppose if the RESP dates back to pre-separation, how it is used might depend on how it was equalized. But you don't just hand it over to him, and you don't pay half.

    If both children are still living with you more than 60% of the time, and under 18 or enrolled full time in post-secondary education, then he owes child support based solely on his income. You are not required to show him a budget, or list of child-related expenses in any way, shape or form. Of course, many people on here will tell you stories of how the child support they pay gets the ex a new car and annual vacation, and doesn't appear to benefit the child at all, so it's somewhat understandable that someone might wish there was more accountability to how CS is spent, but there isn't.

    Do NOT take advice from your ex, or his lawyer. Ask here, or get advice from duty counsel at the courthouse, or get a lawyer.

    Now, all this said, there's got to be something motivating this request from your ex, and the attempts to convince you to pay more, and him pay less as a consequence. Is he unhappy about how little time his daughters spend with him? Does he have reason to believe you are using the CS for yourself instead of for the children? Did something happen in either of your lives (new partner?) to make him want to reconsider the CS? If you can figure out where this request is coming from, that will give some insight into how you can deal with it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you so much for responding to me. Well, I can think of two things that would make him want to go to look at CS again. He is a high income earner way over he tables of 150k, and I have reason to believe that his income will be up again this year due to a huge promotion. My income and I don't mind giving a number, is about 45k to 55k depending on some variables this year.

      He has made it quite clear that he really doesn't think he should pay for the child that is going to be over 18 and attend college in the Fall and in fact I think he is not happy paying while she is still in high school.He says he would like her to move out of my condo and either live with him or rent her an apartment as he said CS is only going to be a payment to me not the child. He actually presented this case verbally to her. She does not want to leave her sister or stop living with me. This was very upsetting to her as she expected that life was going to go on as usual, ie, she lives with me and her sister

      About the RESP's they were not matrimonial property. I saved for them and also my family helped out. He also started his after the divorce. However, he claims that we should "share" what we have each saved and then split the costs of Post secondary. He got a lawyer to send me letters, telling me that the courts view the money we have each, as not our money but money that belongs to the child and therefore it is all hers ( and also the sister's) and we can't go for S7. So he also asked on behalf of his client that I give itemized budget for the eldest who will be going to college but living at home with me. My ex then sent me a letter saying that I must provide a budget for the underage daughter as well as one for the eldest. He said I should have been doing this all along. we didn't have any agreement like that at all.

      I just keep my head above water and ex has money at his disposal to hire lawyers. I do not know what to do. His lawyer told me in letter that if I don't settle this with ex that ex has said he will take me to court.

      So, is there a rule that I have to give a budget for daughter who lives at home but goes to college in order to determine child support? I do;t think I have to give a budget for the younger one.
      I thank you so much for your input.

      Comment


      • #4
        You are under no obligation to provide a budget of expenses for the younger child (or elder to a point). The elder you will for the s7 expense for the post secondary education.

        As for the RESP's, well as much as one may not like, it may make financial sense to pool the RESP monies. If anyone gets into a "but this was my amount or that was yours" they pretty much going on with emotional drivel. It makes more sense for each parent to pool their resources to cover the 2/3rds they are obligated to cover.

        And point I am not sure I agree with Rioe on (and I may be completely wrong here, as Rioe is generally bang-on) is the calculation. Normally the amount to be split between the parents is the remaining amount after all bursaries and scholarships are taken into consideration. Like this (hypothetical numbers):

        School cost = $12k
        Kid gets a scholarship = $2k
        Kid earns a bursary = $1k
        RESP = $2k

        Meaning total cost of school = $7k

        $7k is then split 3 ways = $2,333.33 to kid and $4,666.66 for the parents to split proportionally. So you pay $1,166.66 and the ex pays like $3500.

        Comment


        • #5
          Ok. So the budget that I would present would relate to the costs of college such as tuition ,books, lab fees etc? But as far as itemizing food, shelter, etc., that would not be required for the eldest child in Post Secondary? I hope I understand this correctly.
          Thanks this has been very helpful.

          Comment


          • #6
            According to the CS tables, he is owing about $2000/month to support the kids (not surprising he is looking to reduce that!).

            If you are having trouble justifying this CS amount, perhaps this might put in perspective where the money goes. (not discussing the tuition amounts at all here).

            You are in a 3bdrm (+) condo? That's gonna cost significantly more than a 1-2 bedroom condo (including rent/mortgage + utils + parking + insurance). You have a car big enough to manage 3 people and their stuff - plus additional bus/taxi/train/etc fares - that's significantly more than what you would pay for your own. And the teenager food, clothes and 'stuff'! (that's more obvious/visible to you probably). Then how about family vacations (I'm guessing these are pretty minimal for you at the moment).

            And it's not unreasonable to expect all of the above would be at a moderate-to-high 'standard of living' because of your combined $200K+ incomes.

            Here's a guess at a rough budget (kids expenses only) that is inline with your combined incomes.

            600/mo Housing (increase - not separable)
            200/mo Car + other transport (increase - car portion not separable)
            200/mo Clothing
            600/mo Food
            250/mo entertainment/stuff
            550/mo vacation (includes a 2 week budget-level trip for 2 kids somewhere outside North America?)

            I'm not suggesting you provide a budget, it is just for you to see how it adds up.

            That's $2400/mo ... which is in the same ballpark as the $2750 you get from the CS tables: $750/mo from you and $2000/mo from him.

            See here for tool to look up the table amounts, plus more background info on how CS works. Justice Canada - Child Support Online Lookup

            Since your oldest daughter will be living at home when at uni, from that CS amount you could provide her with a $1000/month allowance for her to manage ALL of her own expenses (except for housing and tuition/books). While YOU continue to cover the more fixed housing/car costs ($375/mo per kid). That would counter any arguments from your ex that the money is going to YOU instead.

            (oh man ... I personally couldn't imagine getting a $1000/mo allowance - on top of rent and tuition - during university! ... but anyways)

            I don't know, I'm guessing maybe you are not actually spending $600/mo more on housing because of your daughters ... but probably you are spending at least $300/mo more. So put the $150/mo per kid difference in a savings account for the kids. That's another way to deflate any argument he might put up that his money is going into your pockets.

            One argument he might have for reducing the CS is that he is already providing for them by significant spending on clothing/entertainment/housing/vacations ... is that the case? Then the argument becomes one about WHO controls spending of the money, and that they are only able to enjoy these benefits outside of their main residence - i.e. there is a big discrepancy in standard of living between the 2 households.
            Last edited by dinkyface; 05-08-2012, 02:27 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Kid doesn't qualify for student loans, based on the amount her father makes. There is no "set in stone" rule for Post secondary, but it's typically pretty close to what you've already been told.

              I've posted a couple of times about what I think is fair regarding post secondary.

              Tuition + books (@60% of "new"...buy USED!) + residence/meal plan (doesn't apply in your situation as the child is still living at home...SAVES MONEY!), + student fees/etc (all tuition/fees are available on the school sites most of the time, send his ass a link) + transportation (public transit if available - Bus Pass YO!)

              The RESPs can either be used for the CHILD'S SHARE, OR (since you both have your own) the parents share. Depending on how much is there, is might be easier to let it be used for the child, which would place LESS burden on her to work part time/etc.

              The ex may have realized, that he can technically be on the hook for CS for BOTH children for 8+ years post secondary, given HE has a medical degree. The courts will typically lean towards support for the children for a duration equal to an equivalent degree to the highest educated parent.

              Comment


              • #8
                I guess that I feel that I don't have to supply a budget other than the College Budget as I don't hear that it is mandated. What I realize he is doing is trying to see how much I spend so that he can lower the CS amounts. He basically said that in a round about way. And I will make a big compromise in the RESP's because it is just too stressful and also I went through a very tough divorce and I just want this over with. As I said, I was not able to get the kind of legal help that he did during the divorce as I did not have the money. That put me at a detriment. I was just relieved to get out of the situation and go on living life with my kids.

                And no, other than a one or two week vacation in his motor home he doesn't spend a lot of money on the kids. He never buys them clothes and if he thinks they are short of something (which is not true, I do get them more than they need), he asks for me to provide it.I am talking about $10 dollar items.

                At one point earlier on, he wanted them to have, paid by the CS, duplicates of everything they have at home with me. They spend only two weekends a month over there. I feel that he is not reasonable. Also the kids tell me that he doesn't provide a lot of food for them. Just enough but no extras or fun food. Once in awhile he takes them to a movie and very rarely out for dinner (birthdays). So, I have thought he won't pay anything extra out of wallet because he thinks all of us have too much money.

                I have had a very difficult time every time he tells me what his rules are. So when I got the RESP pooling together idea from him and his lawyer, I knew he would not relent and I do not think it is worth it to go to court to get S7, as maybe I wouldn't. I do not want to spend precious time and money on lawyers and courts.

                So while I will give the 50-50 on education, him asking for the itemized budget has me quite upset. I just feel and basically know he is going to take this to other places. He will scrutinize everything. Once he opens a door to something as I found in the divorce, he does not give up. If I sound like a doormat, perhaps I am but he is a very difficult personality and he is very concerned about "his" money.

                That is why I came here. I need information and support and I thank you all for responding. I will tell him that I do not believe that a budget is required due to the nature of CS. I know he will get his lawyer at me again as when he wants something, he just never gives up.

                It is so hard.I guess we should have had something in our agreement about college. No one brought it up in the divorce. That is my fault.I should have known everything and should have have it written in stone so that I would not be harrassed. That is how I feel.He is harassing me. I feel that the budget he wants is to harrass me. He knows that I give the kids everything they need and more. In fact he is critical to them when I buy them a nice gift for birthdays telling them it is too expensive (IPod) and then emailing me to tell me that they don't know the value of a dollar.

                So, I need to answer his letter and I will be saying that I will not provide an itemized budget. I will bet that he will threaten to take me to court.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by hondalady View Post
                  I will bet that he will threaten to take me to court.
                  That threat would be an empty one. It would probably be to your benefit to go to court, from the sounds of it. A judge would very likely tell him to pay the guideline CS based on his income with no budget from you, and formalize an agreement about section 7 post-secondary expenses that would see you and he paying proportional to income, not 50-50. And if you can show that you've tried to be reasonable to achieve that out of court, he'll likely be ordered to pay your legal fees too.

                  He thinks he's scaring you into avoiding court and giving in to his unreasonable demands. If you can stand the stress, call his bluff.

                  He's concerned about "his" money, but he's legally required to support "his" kids with it. Maybe it if was about spousal support he'd have a chance.

                  I would suggest that you find some separation agreement paragraphs from sample templates, that deal with child support and section 7 expenses for post-secondary education, and make him a reasonable offer to use the most popular and accepted wordings. Include the bit about proportional to income for school expenses. Send that to him as your offer. This will show him (and his lawyer) that you are doing your research, that you know what's reasonable, and that you won't be bullied into accepting something unfair to your daughters. Then if you really want to, you can later accept the 50-50 education stuff, so he can feel he's "won." If he's doing all this so that they can learn the value of a dollar, maybe you can offer to work something out so that he pays his section 7 proportion directly to them and they have to learn to budget it. Defuse his arguments while keeping him to fair amounts.

                  Your girls deserve the access to education that their father's income can provide. They're very lucky.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    You can either reply that you won't provide it or ignore that part of his letter entirely and simply respond to the parts you feel are applicable. He isn't entitled to the info and has ZERO chance of getting it court ordered as it's none of his business.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      He is doing a very good job of putting you on the defensive ... which is effectively preventing you from taking the (ENTIRELY JUSTIFIABLE) offensive position of pushing for him to support his kids properly ... according to the guidelines.

                      His asking for budget info is just his way to derail you from what you should be doing. The request deserves very little in terms of response. The response should be that your position is that you should be following support guidelines, AND that you will be pursuing this in court immediately.

                      Unless you 'man up', you have VERY LITTLE chance of ever getting any CS from him.

                      Whatever you do, don't react in fear at the threat of court - it will only make him bolder. Let him know that you know that court is a GOOD thing for you.

                      I think your ONLY option is to call his bluff.

                      You need to take control, start court filings (NOW), and pushing back at him to get CS rolling for your kids. The court filings start the process, and is very effective to put the pressure on. It doesn't mean you are going to trial - at any time during the court process you can come to your own agreement - you are actually supposed to continue negotiating ouside of the court room. But having looming court dates can be very ... motivating.

                      To succeed, your mindset needs to change to one of 'This is my kids' right, and I will fight for it'.

                      A bit harsh, but you have a big job to do here. But you should know YOU CAN DO IT, with the support here on the forum and a lot of self-education on how the legal procedures work, and a lot of TIME). Even with your best efforts, it can easily take over a year to succeeed ... so ACT NOW.
                      Last edited by dinkyface; 05-08-2012, 02:36 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        ^^ Yep... that....

                        and in the back of your mind ((never out loud or in email...)) tell him to take a long walk off a short peer!! What an A$$!!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          hondalady- Your situation sounds very similar to mine. Ex has large income, children are older and he does not want to pay child support. He has asked for a budget, and asked that the childs part-time income should affect child support. Meaning he isn't obligated to pay anything.

                          Threatens to take me to court all the time. Call his bluff.

                          dinkyface-Unless you 'man up', you have VERY LITTLE chance of ever getting any CS from him.

                          Whatever you do, don't react in fear at the threat of court - it will only make him bolder. Let him know that you know that court is a GOOD thing for you.

                          I think your ONLY option is to call his bluff.
                          Understand this, dinkyface is very correct here.

                          Talk to the FLIC office at the courthouse and proceed with an application for interim support.

                          In AB you must attend a DRO before your court appearance when child support is an issue. This is a free dispute resolution mediation used to try and settle the issue before going into a court room.

                          A family law lawyer is the mediator. Your ex will try and make these same arguments and his lawyer will try his best to also convince the DRO lawyer. If you don't settle this issue, he will have to face a judge and explain why he doesn't want to pay child support. He will not be successful. You will be granted some amount of interim support.

                          Insist that the order is registered with MEP program, that way you will not have to deal with the ex. Support payments will be direct deposited to your account.

                          You need some legal representation. Check with legal aid, check with your employers EAP program, and go to the court house and talk to the FLIC office. Use your line of credit, cash RRSPs, but you definitely need representation. Your ex believes he is right and you are wrong. I'm pretty sure he also believes he can convince a judge that he is right as well.

                          Also, do not pay anything 50/50. Post secondary, sec. 7, should all be shared according to both your incomes.

                          Tayken has many posted many times about high conflict people. Search his user name and read what you can. Check out Bill Eddy web site - High conflict instituion, look under Articles, and read what you can.

                          edit: The court house has, I think, free, mediation available. You can take advantage of this, but don't go unrepresented. I think you can get duty counsel to attend with you. You can also have duty counsel attend the DRO with you.

                          The court house also has free information sessions. I attended the parenting after separation and the communication after separation sessions. It is not mandatory for you because of the ages of your children. Go anyways. I found the communication session very helpful.
                          Last edited by frustratedwithex; 05-08-2012, 03:16 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thank you for that post Frustratedwithex. I have heard of DRO but didn't really understand what it is. So, I will google more information about that. Without sounding like more of a wimp than I already have , I guess that I would have to attend in same room with him? The mere thought of it is very difficult.

                            I only interact with him by email. I always try to be pleasant and polite even when I am getting it from him.I keep him informed of all the kids things happening in their lives. I try so hard to be cooperative because of that high conflict personality you spoke of. Ugg..the thought of having him on the other side of the table. If I see him when I drop kids off, he makes a big deal to stand there and give this snarl face like a big mad dog. Of couirse, the kids see this as well. I gave everyone more information about why I am so reluctiant to deal with him. I don't think I have ever in my life dealt with anyone quite like him. It is just hard.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You know, I do think going to court is definitely making me crazy because I thought I was done with him and all of the things that I went through and done with lawyers. But if I did go for child support and S7, does anyone know, would it be so complicated like the divorce was? Would I have to get all my assets (LOL, all of them) together? Would I have to value the condo and all of my things like I did with divorce and supply RRSP statements and credit cards and bank statements again? That is all so overwhelming to me right now. I think that is part of why I just don't go for it.

                              Comment

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