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  • Separation Date Dispute

    Hello,
    I am fairly new to separation/divorce proceedings and ask for your advice as to separation date issue. We both agree that we are separating and divorcing but I am not in agreement with what my husband considers separation date. He claims it is February 1, 2010. I think that since we lived together, shared one bank account, I cooked and cleaned, did his laundry, bought groceries for the house, income tax returned were prepared as "married" - separation date should be the date when we close sale of our house which will be June 22, 2012 (three months from now). I must admit that since Feb 2010 we slept in separate rooms and there was no sexual relationship since then. My husband told me two weeks ago that I should expect "something" in the mail from his lawyer regarding separation and divorce. He did not want to tell me details but he said that he claimed separation date as Feb. 2010. Can I simply not agree to this date? I do not have money to hire a lawyer so I have to do this alone. I have 20K debt on my credit cards which accumulated since spring 2011 - I admit I spend 3K for a trip to Cuba where I went with our two sons last summer but the rest of the money I spent was for everyday things, like groceries, furniture, clothing, school supplies for kids, computer equipment which all of us use in the house. My husband does not want to split this debt and I myself am not sure if I should fight to split it. Separation date is significant here (I think) because back in February 2010 I did not have any outstanding debt on my credit cards. Please post your comments as to whether I should fight to split the credit card debt and separation date. (Please note that we are still living in the same house and will do so until June 22, 2012). Thank you very much everyone. MK

  • #2
    My advice is simple: There is enough "wiggle room" in the definition of separation that you could (both) go broke fighting it out. You can live under the same roof and be separated - so it'll be an uphill battle.

    The only reason I can think of right now (it's early and I haven't had coffee) that you might resist a backdated separation date is financial: More pension, SS, etc., for you. Fair enough, but think *hard* about what it might cost to get you there ... Is it worth spending a dollar to gain 50 cents?

    Cheers!

    Gary

    Comment


    • #3
      to me once you started sleeping in separate bedrooms and stopped having sex then that was the separation date. Did you do anything together as a couple after that like go to each others family christmas or whatever? Did you still act as a couple?

      I did my exs laundry for a bit (my washer and dryer) but then told him to either do it himself or take it to his gfs and get her to do it. I did not cook for him but if i made a roast i offered some to him just like he did with me.

      the furniture etc you bought after that date is all yours if he uses the date he wants.
      Last edited by standing on the sidelines; 02-26-2012, 10:49 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Your seperation date would be applicable from when you stopped living together and acting as a couple. Essentially, when you stopped sleeping together, seperated your financials, taking meals together, being out socially together and of course, stopped doing each others' laundry etc.

        It's my understanding as well, that CRA will not consider you seperated under any circumstances if you're living under the same roof. I could be wrong though.

        I think the biggest thing you need to figure out is what's the impact of the two diferent seperation dates. If there is little to no impact, then I would go ahead with it. If there is a significant impact then I would hold firm and provide documentation to show your actual seperation date.

        Comment


        • #5
          How old are you, and how long have you been married?

          If you think you have a claim for spousal support, then there are some cutoff dates in the guidelines beyond which spousal could be payable for many years i.e.
          - if age + years married > 65
          - if years married more than 20

          But regardless of this, what your ex is asking for is quite normal.

          You'll have to be creative in coming up with the 'market value' of your house in 2010 though - possibly look at current value, then adjust for local price changes over the last 1-2 years, and any signifigant repairs/changes.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post

            It's my understanding as well, that CRA will not consider you seperated under any circumstances if you're living under the same roof. I could be wrong though.

            .
            I had that issue with them also. They would not accept the december 2010 date even though that was what was in our separation agreement. Only when he left for his vacation with his new gf in july and never slept here again after he got back did cra accept that the separation date was july 28th 2011, the day he left for vacation.

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            • #7
              My GF's ex's lawyer found a loophole to make it look like she was living with him almost a year longer than she actually was, which screwed her in the end. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

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              • #8
                A classic example of why it's best NOT to try to fuck the system.

                Comment


                • #9
                  You can deal with the 20k debt by breaking it down. For example:

                  5k furniture (you keep the furniture and the debt)
                  3k trip w 2 sons (you split 2/3 of this)
                  2k computer (you keep the computer and the debt)
                  2k your clothing (you keep the clothing and the debt)
                  8k household/kids (you split this debt)

                  This leaves 10k of debt to be split. Which means you are arguing over 5K.

                  I'd suggest coming up with an equalization plan that covers all items in the house, then see how the debt fits into that.

                  I have to admit I'm surprised at your decision to accumulate so much debt in one year, given that you've known since the beginning of 2010 that you are separating. What changed your normal pattern of paying it off each month?

                  Your best bet will be to prove that a lot of this was for shared living expenses AND that it was in line with your usual combined spending level (hopefully it was?). The other portion then is yours alone (along with the items purchased).

                  Also, if this credit card was normally used for household expenses, and normally paid off from the joint account, then that is another argument in your favour.
                  Last edited by dinkyface; 02-26-2012, 01:33 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    k im confused now. You posted in another thread that you guys were separating and that you had made arrangements to buy him out of the house in april of 2010 so you must have considered yourself separated back then??

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Oh, I see what happened here, now that I reviewed your other threads. You caved to his pressure that he wouldn't do anything regarding the separation until after the kids were 18, didn't you? You could have fought it, but didn't. So now, he got his way and wants to have his cake and eat it too, getting to live in the house and pretend to be a good dad for two years after you both agreed separation was going to happen. I think, now that this has happened, that you need a lawyer, because it has gotten a whole lot more complex.

                      He could argue that you had a verbal agreement that you were separated but living in the same home until the set day arrived, and that because you slept in separate rooms and didn't have sex anymore and had discussed separation and agreed to it back in February 2010, that this is the appropriate date to use.

                      You could argue that despite these events in and since February, that you still presented to outsiders as married, that you maintained joint finances and taxes as a married couple, and that you had a verbal agreement that this would be maintained until your kids were 18, so that birthdate is the most appropriate date to use. I'd say since you have his signature on tax returns that list him as still married, that's excellent evidence for your argument.

                      Obviously, there's a history of you caving into his pressure. So you have to decide what's going to be the cost of you fighting it, and the cost of you caving in again here. And honestly, you could go through a lot more than 10k (the half of the debt you appear concerned about) in the fight.

                      To help you make the decision, prepare two financial statements (form 13) one for each potential date, and estimate what his two versions of it might be as well, and decide if the difference in division of assets is worth the battle. Figure out why he considers it advantageous to use the earlier date, so you know his motivation for fighting for it. Then, you start to negotiate. Is he willing to forgo any spousal support you might pay to him if you agree to his date, for example? And if you agree to his date, don't forget to include in your equalization the difference in taxes you may owe back to CRA once you refile as separated for those years.

                      One thing to keep in mind though; he doesn't get out of paying child support just because he made you wait for separation until the youngest turned 18. If they are going to college or university and continue to reside with you, he is still financially responsible for them. This isn't anything that can be negotiated either; it's a child's right to be supported by both parents.

                      He sounds like a real piece of work. "Happy 18th birthday, son! I'm moving out of your life now!" First instinct is to fight fight fight so he can't get away with that kind of behaviour, but rely on rational thought instead of reactive emotion and take a step back to consider. Is the cost of the fight worth the results if you win? What if you lose?

                      Good luck.
                      Last edited by Rioe; 02-26-2012, 03:10 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sounds like you both separated and agreed to separate back in 2010.

                        So that should be the date of separation if you can't agree.

                        As for the financial side, it should not make much difference. Separating in June 2012 or back in 2010, what's the difference? You both still own the house until closing. If there is any SS, it would start from when you separated your finances - it should be almost a wash.

                        If you are not using a lawyer, best to read a lot and get out the calculator.

                        Also, before signing any agreement, pay a lawyer to advise you on it - they may stir things up so make sure you keep them under control, but you need independent legal advice.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The difference in finances would definately be if one spouse had racked up all kinds of debt post-seperation, prior to someone moving out and now wants the other to be on the hook for said debt.

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                          • #14
                            Feb is separation date. My ex insisted it was July 2007. I said Jan. We were in same house: he was in lower level (self contained) bsmt. Nobody seemed to give too much of a crap (sorry) over which date was right. The support I got (but actually still not collecting on) was ordered back to the date the application was made (in Court) which in our case was several months after he was out of the house. Actually, 11 months. So the Support Order went back to the date of commencement of Application. Sept 2008. So there you have it.. Stay out of court if you can. If its a few grand you're taking issue with: you're lucky. Court will suck you both dry in ways you can't even imagine. Financially, emotionally. And once you're "in" and engaged in the war - it's hard to curtsy out. Stay out if you can. You'll be way more broke when it's all done.

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                            • #15
                              I sincerely thank you all for your replies to my question. I really appreciate your help! You are all fantastic people and I very much appreciate it. I am thinking this through and although I am really upset with my husband I realize that anger is not a good companion to reasonable decision making.

                              Comment

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