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  • Grandparents in Family Disputes

    I am not sure which category, if any, this subject would fall under but I am at my wits end where to find help. We live in Toronto, but our grandchildren, age 4 and 2 years live in Aurora, the Judge Perkins courtroom jurisdiction. My daughter, age 38 is a Scientist in Math, has no alcohol or drug abuse problems. Her husband died suddenly seven months ago, while they were separated. She then hooked up with a former b/friend whom she dated at age 19. He was physically,verbally,emotionally abusive then. We had to have the police intervene. Fast forward 20 years and he is now living with her and her two kids. He is also just as abusive but she cannot seem to break away from him. He is verbally and emotinally abusive to her 2 children. I raised these kids from birth, my husband financially supported them. The b/friend has isolated her and banned us from the apartment.This is the 3rd time and usually happens when he wants us to fork over some money. These grandchildren are very close to us and per the Ontario law we have no rights whatsoever. I want to hire an attorney to represent the children in their right to see their grandparents. I would like referrals please and tons of advice. thanks very much.

  • #2
    Grandparents do not have many "rights". If you feel the children are in harms way, you could call the CAS.

    But I think the best thing to do will be to try and work on your relationship with your daughter and ignore the b/f situation. Just focus on her and the kids and pretend the don't bring up the b/f in conversation.

    Comment


    • #3
      I read your question and it is not my area but I could have bet the bank that you were wrong - court rulings are protecting the rights of grandparents as important social influences that greatly benefit the child. But it is important you find what these are. They can be basic or more???

      Have you tried to contact the local courthouse in your area - there you can find the duty council (a lawyer who is there at certain times to answer specific questions)?

      In plain words, I do not know how you came to such a strong conclusion to your having basically no rights that an Ontario grandparent may have but I must ask have you actually googled this on the internet? I only ask as I entered,

      "ontario grandparents visitation rights"

      and page after page of info came up - with a brief glance it appears that you do have at least some rights with respect to access. Perhaps your issue is what you want in terms of access and what you are actually permited?

      Next in your instance the info you are asking is fairly straight forward from a legal standpoint I believe so I can only recommend you begin to learn trying to get your information from government websites. The next is if you google the ontario family law act R.S.O. 1990, c.F. 3 you will find the main document that spells out the rules for families and you need to find the section that specifically tells you about grandparents. There is also the Ontario Divorcce Act but I strongly think the first one is what you need.

      So this is just one link's result after googling your question:

      Do grandparents have visiting rights in Ontario Canada My grandsons parents who are not together will not let us see our grandson what are our rights?

      Read more: Do grandparents have visiting rights in Ontario Canada My grandsons parents who are not together will not let us see our grandson what are our rights


      In Ontario grandparents can fill out form 8 for access to grandkids as a 3rd party member. You must show the court that you had a previous bond and that the grandkids will suffer without you in their lives. You can find more information at 'Family Connections' on the world wide web located at kidsrights.ca.
      There is a download-able form 8 on this site.

      Read more: Do grandparents have visiting rights in Ontario Canada My grandsons parents who are not together will not let us see our grandson what are our rights

      So good luck in your quest. Your grandkids are lucky to have people that love them enough to just not take no for an answer and walk away..... If you find you have more questions ask them here.
      Last edited by ddol1; 11-09-2011, 11:08 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ddol1 View Post
        I read your question and it is not my area but I could have bet the bank that you were wrong
        I said "many" rights. They do have some, it is just how much money are you willing to spend and how long the process will take.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi HammerDad
          Took me a bit to figure out - I did not see your post - I type slow!!! My response was just to the OP.

          So the comment is not to dispute anything in either post aside from "I would have bet the bank that I do remember amongst all the reading in the last 4 months or so that the rights for grandparents were being solidified over time. Maybe 30 years ago they had none?? Today they have some rights and as far as cost. I never assume what another person considers as "cost". I am sure there are some that money is no objective when it comes to family - they will do everything they can to correct what they think is a wrong. It is thier choice and I would support somebody if they are making a choice that is right for them. I am getting far off topic but it is a good point to commend those who will do everything thier means will allow.

          Comment


          • #6
            Grandparents in Family Disputes

            Of course it was impossible for me to post my entire story. I have done extensive research concerning this subject of Ontario having no grandparents rights. I have also spoken to other grandparents who are in the same situation. I went to see an attorney at $600/per hour who wanted $7,000 retainer. However, he could only say that it’s likely we would get 2 x 2 hours per month, because most judges go with the Chapman v Chapman decision. I was not preared to fork out money for 4 hours a month. I have spoken to two MPPs who have for the past few years attempted to pass grandparents legislation. There are other Provinces that do have Grandparents rights however Ontario has tried numerous times but failed to amend the Children’s Act to include the word grandparent. Be that as it may, my grandchildren are very close to us but it’s the abusive boyfriend who is causing the problems primarily because he wants us to supplement their income. I did contact the CAS, they are useless and should be abandoned. Google the stories on the CAS. What I wanted was an attorney who thinks outside the box, and today I found one. It is the Children’s right to have the same relationship with us as they had before this abuser came into their home. I will not allow my two grandkids, through negligence and abuse, whether its emotional verbal or any other kind, to cause them to run away from home at 14years old, get pregnant and turn to drugs. That is not they way we raised our daughter, she is educated, no substance abuse but seems to lack common sense. It is not an option, and my daughter will need extensive therapy to learn how to choose a mate wisely once this has been resolved.

            Comment


            • #7
              no amount of therapy will make someone fall in love with the "right person" Automatically you think her kids will run away from home, get knocked up and do drugs. You seem to be the type of person who is going to harp on her about her choice in man. If that is what you are doing then all you are making sure of is that she stays with him to prove you wrong. Believe me I am speaking from experience, my parents did that when i dated my first husband and i ended up marrying him to show them. If they would have left it alone i would not of moved out at 19 to go live with him.

              All you can do is bite your tongue when it comes to the bf. It is her choice who she shares her bed with. You make a big deal of it then all you will do is make sure you will push her away forever.

              Comment


              • #8
                Standing on the Sideline, I do not talk to her about her relationships at all. The therapy she needs is to be more selective in who she dates. She married a guy at 25 and we were very supportive.The wedding cost us $50,000. She moved to the USA because he is American. After 8 years he found a g/friend and left her. She had a few relationships after that which did not work. Then she moved to Florida, on her 3rd relatiosnhip in 3 months she met a guy, (con man, did not work, pathalogical liar, addicted to prescription pain pills). She was then 36 and after 4 years separated. she had two kids with him. Again made a mistake by giving her $2,000 per month to supplement r income. This husband overdosed seven months ago. She moved back to Toronto with her kids. She almost immediately went into a relationship with a former b/friend from 20 years ago, who abused her then and is abusing her now. I would say that she needs therapy especailly since the two kids see what is happening.

                Comment


                • #9
                  therapy will not help her choose the men she falls in love with. She has made mistakes, we all do. Obviously you are well to do financially or you would not be able to spend 50 grand on a wedding and give her 2 grand a month as extra income. The money doesnt give you the right to decide who she has in her life. You may not like the guy but it is her choice. Just be supportive of her (NOT FINANCIALLY) and if she turns her back on you just let her know that you will be there for her.

                  So the father of the kids is not the ex husband who overdosed? it was some guy she meant after separating?

                  Therapy is not the cure all for everything.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The father of the kids is the husband, whom she was separated from, when he died, so technically she became a widow. The problem is not who she is dating. I want her to be happy and the kids to be happy. Its the fact that the current boyfriend abuses her. Emotionally, verbally, and physically. He caught her at a time when she was vulnerable during her separation. We did support her emotionally when they reunited and he told us that he was now grown up, had been to anger management clases and we (hubby and I) were happy that she seemed happy. I totally agree that she can have who she wants in her life, but I object to the two small children having no say to the abuse they are experiencing. They are vulnerable and need protection.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I can understand you wanting to protec the kids. You said that when they dated before you had the police involved, can you do the same again? If you have witnessed the abuse you can report it to the police cas and whoever. If you take it to court you may end up spending lots of money and not getting what you want. It may end your relationship with your daughter and your grandkids. Look at the NCP who have a hard time getting access to their kids and they have more rights then grandparents. There are no qurantees and it can easily turn out bad.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Patty60 View Post
                        I am not sure which category, if any, this subject would fall under but I am at my wits end where to find help. We live in Toronto, but our grandchildren, age 4 and 2 years live in Aurora, the Judge Perkins courtroom jurisdiction.
                        Jurisdiction is set by where the children primarily reside. So, any motion you attempt to make will have to be in that jurisdiction.

                        Originally posted by Patty60 View Post
                        My daughter, age 38 is a Scientist in Math, has no alcohol or drug abuse problems.
                        Ok, your daughter is a grown woman, a professional obviously with a higher level education.

                        Originally posted by Patty60 View Post
                        Her husband died suddenly seven months ago, while they were separated.
                        Unfortunate for their children. It is difficult for children to grow up without either parents equally involved in their lives.

                        Originally posted by Patty60 View Post
                        She then hooked up with a former b/friend whom she dated at age 19. He was physically,verbally,emotionally abusive then. We had to have the police intervene.
                        This is quite the laundry list of allegations. Were there ever criminal charges and a conviction made against the ex-partner you claim to have done this? Why at 19 did you have to intervene in the matters?

                        Originally posted by Patty60 View Post
                        Fast forward 20 years and he is now living with her and her two kids. He is also just as abusive but she cannot seem to break away from him.
                        Generally there are unaddressed parental issues with victims who allow themselves to be abused. Did your daughter ever seek treatment for the past allegations of abuse you are claiming against her new partner?

                        Originally posted by Patty60 View Post
                        He is verbally and emotinally abusive to her 2 children.
                        What evidence do you have in support of this abuse? If there is indeed "emotional abuse", which is defined by roughly 30 items generally in psychology, especially to children you should be reporting this to the Children's Aid Society and not a website. Emotional abuse (better known as psychological abuse) is more dangerous than physical abuse in some cases.

                        Originally posted by Patty60 View Post
                        I raised these kids from birth, my husband financially supported them.
                        But, you are not the mother of the children nor have you been granted custodial rights over them. You just stated that your wife does not abuse substances and has a career in science (specifically math). Based on the ages given the children are 4 and 2 years of age. It is doubtful that you have "raised" them as they have significant more time to develop as humans.

                        It is wonderful that you have been there to support your daughter's children but, it is important to realize that they are not "your children". You can make a claim for access, or if the evidence is sufficient you can motion for custody of the children but, that would require intervention by CAS probably.

                        Originally posted by Patty60 View Post
                        The b/friend has isolated her and banned us from the apartment.
                        So your daughter and mother of the two children is not employed and does not leave their apartment? You have presented her as a educated person who has no addiction issues.

                        Has your daughter ever been diagnosed with a mental health condition at any time in her life?

                        Originally posted by Patty60 View Post
                        This is the 3rd time and usually happens when he wants us to fork over some money.
                        The best thing to do is to not provide the financial support. If what you are saying is true then you are only contributing to the problem not helping solve it by providing financial support. You are still your daughter's parent and at 38 you are not required by law to support her financial needs. I do realize you "worry" about your grandchildren but, should there be a true need or any risk you should be contacting CAS to have matters investigated by the proper authorities.

                        Originally posted by Patty60 View Post
                        These grandchildren are very close to us and per the Ontario law we have no rights whatsoever.
                        Well, this isn't entirely true. If you can provide cogent evidence of your involvment in the children's life and that you were indeed the primary care giver, as you state in your message, then you can file a motion for access to your grandchildren. It isn't impossible but, generally these kinds of battles only insight conflict and do not solve problems.

                        I highly recommend you read the book "It's All Your Fault" by William Eddy prior to making any motion in court for access to your daughter's children.

                        You are projecting a lot of blame and sighting some very strong emotional facts in your posting. You claim "these grandchildren" are very close to you. It is odd that you would refer to them in this manner. Are you not close to your other grandchildren?

                        Originally posted by Patty60 View Post
                        I want to hire an attorney to represent the children in their right to see their grandparents. I would like referrals please and tons of advice. thanks very much.
                        Advice:

                        1. You are going to need to retain a very experienced family law solicitor and you are going to have to convince them to take on your case. Solicitors who have this kind of experience balance their time between the hundreds of clients who contact them a week and often select the "interesting" cases with clients that can afford their services.

                        2. There is very little case law in support of your arugment but, there still is some. Judges do not take kindly to grandparents who sue for access. Generally this demonstrates a family in conflict and generally there is a history of conflict.

                        3. If you do proceed with litigating this matter expect every family secrete to appear before the court. Every detail you never wanted ever put into public record. Expect your daughter to reveal every little detail of any childhood abuse, argument and reason she does not want you near the children. If your daughter is indeed a victim of intimate partner abuse, expect false allegations against you and your husband. Expect your daughter's boyfriend, who has a past history with your family, to back up every allegation made against you as a negative advocate.

                        4. Expect every solicitor on the planet to come and sit in on your motion hearing as grandparents suing for custody is very rare. As soon as one solicitor who has a motion scheduled after your first appearance hears the motion being heard in public court expect everyone to know. These are rare cases before the court and they are watched by many.

                        5. Going to court is NOT a private matter. You are asking a public system to make a decision about something that you are unable to resolve privately. Anyone can walk into the court and obtain a copy of all the court documentation for your file. Many litigants do not realize this. I am emphasizing this because of the rarity of motions like you are suggesting before the family court system.

                        6. Research this before even contacting a solicitor. There are a lot of "bad" family law solicitors who will take on anything. You do not want to hire a negative advocate solicitor willing to take anything you say at face value. Hire a solicitor who is going to be honest with you. If you go to 10 solicitors and only 1 says they can help you... Really question yourself as to why only 1 out of 10 say you have any chance of success.

                        You may be disappointed, upset and frustrated with your daughter. Think long and hard about your relationship with her. Has it always been troubled? Think about how you may have contributed to the problem. The problem is generally not all one party in the litigation's fault.

                        Decisions in family law court are made on cogent evidence and not emotional reasoning. Learn the difference between facts and emotional facts. Make sure you are not allowing your emotions to overwhelm you. Court is not a fun place to resolve any family dispute.

                        Good Luck!
                        Tayken

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We have just recently been to court to gain access also to our grandchild. We filed motion 14(?) to get onto the custody case to be able to get access. The judge dismissed it and suggested we work together to see the child. She did advise to file a motion 21 (? mixed up with all these motions that have gone through recently) and proceed if we wished. Counsel suggested to us it really wasn't worth the thousands of dollars we would spend since it would be unlikely a judge would rule in our favour. So, we left defeated.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I am not sure if one is allowed to state attorneys names here, but I think there is a PM function. Can you tell me the name of the attorney you used and the name of the judge. I am at the beginning of my struggle. Thanks for letting me know your situation.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by selectivedi View Post
                              We have just recently been to court to gain access also to our grandchild. We filed motion 14(?) to get onto the custody case to be able to get access. The judge dismissed it and suggested we work together to see the child. She did advise to file a motion 21 (? mixed up with all these motions that have gone through recently) and proceed if we wished. Counsel suggested to us it really wasn't worth the thousands of dollars we would spend since it would be unlikely a judge would rule in our favour. So, we left defeated.
                              Family Therapy is usually a better way to solve these problems than court.

                              Comment

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