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  • #31
    how to view records without counsel?

    Thanks for finding that case.

    This confirms there is a difference in child protection cases and custody cases: that you're automatically entitled to full disclosure without having to bring a motion.

    Besides providing counselling and assistance to families, a major duty of a children’s aid society is to investigate allegations and to bring protection proceedings in respect of children who may be in need of protection. If such a protection case were begun, both the father and mother would be entitled as of right to full disclosure of the society’s records.

    This also doesn't grant the father full disclosure:

    [18] The following information will not be disclosed:

    1.
    Any information relating to an event that occurred prior to the date of the last order.

    2.
    Any information not relevant to the issue of whether there has been a material change in circumstances since the date of the last order, or the issue of what is in the children’s best interests.

    3.
    The identity of informers who provided information to the society regarding the children with a reasonable expectation of confidentiality.

    I'm not sure if CAS would agree to release all records to me if they were only to be given to counsel only- there was no restrictions placed on records. CAS counsel may have concerns if EVERYTHING is being released to me. Especially the name of he person that made a referral against me.

    I guess we'll see what case management will say or order re: release of records.

    Have you come across any cases for release of police records ? I will try searching for this again.



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    • #32
      how to view records without counsel?

      As everyone has said here, where are you getting logic that legal counsel is privy to more information to you.

      And don't say a lawyer told you, that doesn't hold up as a lawyer can say anything.

      Can you back your statement with actual case law or policies etc as stated by CAS. Facts please.

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      Last edited by FirstTimer; 10-09-2016, 06:28 PM.

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      • #33
        Here is what a clause in the order says. Following the clause that all records should be released to counsel:


        All records released by the above noted parties shall be provided to counsel in these proceedings only and shall be maintained in the files of counsel. Where any party is not represented by counsel, such party shall be permitted to review the records but shall not be provided with a copy.



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        • #34
          Ah okay, this just sounds like at the time, you were legally represented and therefore the order was written for your counsel that represented you.

          The last part about not making copies is to cover the privacy issue with this type of sensitive information.

          You are reading into this way too hard. What you need to do is go back to court, let judge know that you are no longer represented and therefore would like a new order saying the records will be released to you. Those are two different orders. The assumption is that you were legally represented therefore it's addressed to your counsel. It wouldn't make sense to word it to you specifically.....then what's the point of you having a lawyer.

          CAS takes these information requests very seriously as any public agency should. Hence identifying who is to get it has to be very specific and AT THE TIME, you were represented.




          Originally posted by trinton View Post
          Here is what a clause in the order says. Following the clause that all records should be released to counsel:


          All records released by the above noted parties shall be provided to counsel in these proceedings only and shall be maintained in the files of counsel. Where any party is not represented by counsel, such party shall be permitted to review the records but shall not be provided with a copy.



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          • #35
            how to view records without counsel?

            Originally posted by FirstTimer View Post
            Ah okay, this just sounds like at the time, you were legally represented and therefore the order was written for your counsel that represented you.

            The last part about not making copies is to cover the privacy issue with this type of sensitive information.

            You are reading into this way too hard. What you need to do is go back to court, let judge know that you are no longer represented and therefore would like a new order saying the records will be released to you. Those are two different orders. The assumption is that you were legally represented therefore it's addressed to your counsel. It wouldn't make sense to word it to you specifically.....then what's the point of you having a lawyer.

            CAS takes these information requests very seriously as any public agency should. Hence identifying who is to get it has to be very specific and AT THE TIME, you were represented.


            Please see my other thread re: counsel withdrawal. The lawyer is seeking an order to get off record but I have some questions. These questions were raised by another lawyer I spoke with.

            There is also the same issue with other 3rd party service providers and an issue re: cellphone records.

            Cellphone records were ordered to be released in the same 2-stage process as CAS records in child protection matters- court and counsel review records (no parties involved) and they decide what records are relevant and what are not. This is going to be difficult without counsel.

            Counsel likely needs to stay on record so all necessary authorizations from CAS and other 3rd parties can be obtained so these records can be transferred to my new counsel directly.

            Counsel is likely not going to release anything unless her most recent bill (which I am going to have assessed at the courts) is paid off. But her motion to get off record has nothing to do with payments and has sworn that I have always been willing to pay.

            I may also raise to the judge some concerns with some comments the lawyer made to me that were rather disturbing and discriminating. The lawyer I recently spoke with looked through all documents and figured out exactly what was happening in less than 15 minutes, this would have taken hours and hours with my current counsel on record. And this new counsel can actually be spoken with like a human, current counsel on record often possesses the attitude of an old grumpy goat.

            This Should be an interesting motion I'll report back as promised.

            Meeting with another counsel next week maybe I'll end up retaining her. The other counsel I spoke with for limited scope retainer is tied up. We'll see. Such an uphill battle to be a true and involved father.


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            Last edited by trinton; 10-09-2016, 08:51 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by trinton View Post
              Please see my other thread re: counsel withdrawal. The lawyer is seeking an order to get off record but I have some questions. These questions were raised by another lawyer I spoke with.

              There is also the same issue with other 3rd party service providers and an issue re: cellphone records.

              Cellphone records were ordered to be released in the same 2-stage process as CAS records in child protection matters- court and counsel review records (no parties involved) and they decide what records are relevant and what are not. This is going to be difficult without counsel.

              Counsel likely needs to stay on record so all necessary authorizations from CAS and other 3rd parties can be obtained so these records can be transferred to my new counsel directly.

              Counsel is likely not going to release anything unless her most recent bill (which I am going to have assessed at the courts) is paid off. But her motion to get off record has nothing to do with payments and has sworn that I have always been willing to pay.

              I may also raise to the judge some concerns with some comments the lawyer made to me that were rather disturbing and discriminating. The lawyer I recently spoke with looked through all documents and figured out exactly what was happening in less than 15 minutes, this would have taken hours and hours with my current counsel on record. And this new counsel can actually be spoken with like a human, current counsel on record often possesses the attitude of an old grumpy goat.

              This Should be an interesting motion I'll report back as promised.

              Meeting with another counsel next week maybe I'll end up retaining her. The other counsel I spoke with for limited scope retainer is tied up. We'll see. Such an uphill battle to be a true and involved father.


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              Why doesn't your lawyer want to represent you anymore if it isn't an issue of money. Be very careful, this new lawyer may just be saying what you want to hear and all they are seeing is $$$$$

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              • #37
                Okay, so in reality you have multiple problems going on here.

                I understand why you want the records now, and the way you worded it, sounded like it was a law / legal issue which didn't make sense to anyone here.

                There are no shortcuts....or have your cake and eat it too scenario here.

                In order to get the records
                1. You pay your lawyer as she requested in full for her to hand over the files to you.
                2. Negotiate with her to hand over the records knowing that you are going to come after her for billing issues
                3. You ignore her for now, request a motion to get the records from her but however, you still need her to get off the record or fire her and let the court know.

                So not even sure why you even asked about the whole thing about lawyer having privileged accessed versus yourself for CAS records. Judging from how you are talking, you are not telling the entire story here and that's not helping you in the long run.

                You need to sort out your immediate problem first of paying off your lawyer first and we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. If she billed you wrong, pay her, get the files, then go after her for billing issues, that's a whole separate matter you have to go through with the courts.

                What are you even trying to do, what is your strategy for custody of your child?

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                • #38
                  how to view records without counsel?

                  Originally posted by standing on the sidelines View Post
                  Why doesn't your lawyer want to represent you anymore if it isn't an issue of money. Be very careful, this new lawyer may just be saying what you want to hear and all they are seeing is $$$$$


                  It's not about money. Like I said, the counsel has stated in her motion to get off record (in an affidavit) that The reason is not about money and that I have been always willing to pay. I've even tipped her at times. Anyhow the reason of withdrawal is of no relevance to the case.

                  The recent bill was provided after her motion to get off record. I disagree with some charges and think that the bill is unreasonable. That'll be getting assessed.


                  The new lawyer I spoke with wasn't really a money driven person. Yes they're motivated by money and in business to make money but she said straight up she's too tied up to take my case. She's pointed
                  Out the merits of case and confirmed material changes that were pointed out by original counsel.

                  The lawyer has already filed motion to get off record.

                  My matter can't move forward without the records.

                  There is a hearing for changes in circumstances that was adjourned until the records were in, for over 6 months now

                  Strategy is prove material change and seek joint custody with equal time sharing, child isn't thriving under mothers care and concerns have been raised by the school and other professionals involved with the child, mom and I have communicated through these issues throughly the proceeding but many of this things were kept a secret from me until I commenced my motion to change - she wouldn't even tell me where the child goes to school or who her doctor is (I have this in writing)

                  Regarding access , holidays were unreasonably being denied and some mid week visitations were cancelled. Access was voluntarily increased throughout this proceeding after a court date but was reduced a little for no good reason other than subsidized daycare regulations.

                  No issues with child support. I have a credit cash balance with FRO.

                  Basically I'm going to ask that counsel stay on record until I have new counsel so everything can be transferred to new counsel

                  Tyne lawyer basically filed a motion and swore an affidavit saying it's not about money The issue is irrelevant but I will be asking the judge on what basis the counsel wants to get off record.

                  The bill was sent after the motion to get removed as counsel was filed and how I am being charged is unreasonably - that will need to be assessed by courts to determine whether they were reasonable - turns out it took the lawyer over 2 months to file the order at the court to be issued for 3rd party service providers , causing unnecessary delays adjournments and costs, apart unfair billing practices

                  Basically I don't feel records should be give to this counsel and proper authorization should be given to give records to new counsel directly.

                  If I have to self represent then I'm stuck because of the cellphone and 3rd party records. It's going to turn into a gong show. The doctor wouldn't release medical and clinical notes even after I obtained consent through counsel. It wasn't until I filed motion for records that the doctor started cooperating. Even then only medical notes were given and letter had to sent to get clinical notes - which confirms I was involved in child's appointments after birth among other things - contrary to mom affidavit that I was absent for several years after child was born. Also using this issue in claim of joint custody since 3rd parties won't give you records if you don't have custody. I've had this issue with other service providers as well the original principal was good but new principal at school wouldn't release anything because I don't have custody.

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                  Last edited by trinton; 10-10-2016, 12:24 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Judge ordered some records to be released to me directly and CAS and police records to opposing counsel. That works too I guess.


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