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  • Help - Spousal Support

    Long story, I'll keep it as short as possible. Married for 21 years, separation date of Aug '15.
    I held permanent gov job the entire marriage. My husband had contracts, permanent job by 1999 and, in 2005, once we had a 5 and 8 year old, decided he didn't like his job so he asked for buyout, told me about it after the fact. Felt he needed a break so waited about 4 months before looking for new job and then it took him 7 months to find one . He started contracting so from 2006 - 2014 held various contracts with 3 long bouts of unemployment, 6 - 10 months. When working he made good money. Even when he was unemployed, I was the constant caregiver for kids, took care of cooking, cleaning etc...my husband also liked to do adventure trips and was into extreme sports. Up until that time, we led pretty much parallel lives and avoided the situation. We both weren't happy with marriage but it was easier to stay and we still managed to provide a stable home for our 2 kids. They had all they needed, played competitive sports, generally happy kids. in 2014, my husband was involved in a serious accident while doing an extreme sport, landed him in the hospital for 4 months, suffered a traumatic brain injury as well as very severe physical injuries. Following accident, it was impossible to live with him, brain injury caused him alot of anger became very verbally abusive. Thankfully, he took out a private disability policy when he started his company in 2006 so he now gets approximately $3700 a month tax free from this policy. His rent is $800 a month.
    I've kept house, kids live with me 100% of the time, one in full time university. I have been full time mother to 2 emotional teenage girls for past 3 years, I feel that in itself deserves compensation. House is still in both our names but I've made all payments associated to it since he moved out and it's not a big house. I've also been paying everything associated with the kids, he has contributed nothing.
    We've provided financial statements, I'm barely keeping afloat. I can accept that I will have to buy him out of the house, I can accept that I will have to pay him a third of my pension (he has RRSPs) but I cannot accept that I will have to pay him spousal support for an indeterminate amount of time. For timebeing, spousal and child will offset eachother but once kids are gone, I will have to pay him over $1000 a month.
    Sorry for my long story, thank you for reading it, if anyone can provide me any insight on the spousal issue, that would be very much appreciated.

  • #2
    I assume you have a lawyer and discussed this? I agree with you. Spousal should never be paid. Their is NEVER an ethical reason to provide spousal support. Unless you locked him in the basement and never allowed him to better his life. But that would be illegal and Spousal support is law. Spousal support was lobbied by a strong feminist movement to empower women leaving a marriage. However, today there are more women earning more than their ex-spouse.

    If you don't have a lawyer, get one. Ask him to negotiate spousal IF it is decided you must pay it. Does you ex have health insurance? If you never get divorced and remain separated, your gov job med insurance would keep him covered. So use that as leverage if you don't mind staying in the separation zone. And it sounds like he needs med insurance.....so this could help reduce your cash payout.

    And don't let anyone tell you, "Spousal is a write off anyway...". Yes it is...but you worked for that money, not your ex.

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    • #3
      Thank you for your input. Yes, I do have a lawyer and yes, we have discussed, and I do trust her, however, I feel you can never do enough research on your own. He was certainly not locked in the basement and free to travel as he pleased while I stayed home with my girls...which I will never regret as I am closer to them today then ever. At the same time, I enabled it and I feel that is what will hurt me. Also, sympathy will be with him because of his being disabled. Negotiating on the medical/dental is a good idea. Anyway, thank you for your input and taking the time to listen to my rant. I just need this to be over so I can move on with my life.

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      • #4
        He worked for nearly the whole duration of the marriage. Yes, there were bouts of unemployment, due to the nature of his contract work, but on the whole, there was clearly never an expectation that he should be a stay-at-home supportive partner sacrificing a career to help you advance yours. Now, he gets his income from his disability insurance, which he sensibly signed up for many years ago. That's what it is designed for. It's his income substitution due to his injury preventing him from working. Presumably he had the right amount of insurance to provide a comparable income to what he once earned.

        I don't see how he could be entitled to additional income substitution from you, unless you make significantly more money than he does, which from your description, it doesn't sound like you do.

        So he's coming to ask for SS now? After successfully supporting himself with the disability payments for two years, proving that he doesn't need it?

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        • #5
          Thanks for your input Rioe. I'm not worried about the compensatory SS because never did he take care of the family even when unemployed, I still did cooking/cleaning/took care of kids....yes, I know, I enabled the situation. I'm worried about the non-compensatory because of disability and the fact we were together 21 years. There is still a fair disparity in our salaries, however, my expenses are much more than his, considering I'm taking care of matrimonial home and kids on my own. Anyway, I really appreciate the input.

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          • #6
            Does the "rule of 65" kick in? If years of marriage (21), his age is 44 or more (total is 65 or more), it makes it worse for you.

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            • #7
              since his injury happened prior to separation that may be taken into consideration...or not. Does he have any earning potential whatsoever now? Or would obtaining income cut into disability payments?

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              • #8
                I have to pay my ex over 150K a year for 20 years. Plus she took the house.

                And that was with 50-50 and she doesnt't even have to work.

                Don't confuse "fair with justice".....welcome to divorce.

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                • #9
                  You have given us very limited information but I will try to be of some assistance.

                  We know he receives 3,700 per month tax free from his private disability policy.

                  Does he receive any other income? CPP Disability? Childrens disability benefits?

                  Is he eligible for the disability tax credit?
                  How much do you make?

                  You should never offset child support with spousal support in a case like this. It's possible he is eligible for the disability tax credit and obviously also receives the personal exemption therefore he could have up to 20,000 of income he could write off without paying tax.

                  So imagine this scenario.

                  He pays you 1,000 child support.
                  You pay him 1,000 spousal support (tax deductible for you but taxable for him.
                  Even though its taxable for him, he can write it all off with his personal exemption and likely disability tax credit.
                  Then you write off the 1,000 and if you are in a 40% tax bracket, you get an extra 400 a month with no effect to him.

                  I'm thinking you'd like an extra 400 a month, yes?

                  Lawyers and judges no nothing about finance or how to structure a settlement to benefit both parties. And don't even get me started on what a garbage program Divorcemate is.

                  So bottom line is I need more information to help you but I've suggested some things for you to think about.

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                  • #10
                    I have seen prenups thrown out of the window by judges when one party was disabled during the marriage, It seems like your lawyer has already told you that you will have to pay up. In my learning for an indefinite amount of time. As said above the guidelines were written by stanch feminists, the best you can do now is to make everyone around you aware of the negatives of feminism and how it has come back to bite you unfortunately.

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                    • #11
                      Desperate Dad, sorry I never replied, I have to take a break from this at times to wrap my head around it all. I now have a meeting with my lawyer next week and I'm doing some research on my own time on spousal support/entitlement.

                      So, as far as he's disclosed he receives $3800 a month tax free so not eligible for tax credits. As far as I know, it's only income he receives and will until he's 65 unless he's deemed healthy enough to go back to work. He happened to mention to my daughter the other day that he was applying for some other disability (CVC or something) not too sure exactly what but that may get him an additional $1000 per month. He wants to buy her a motorcycle. Yes, that is right, he hasn't paid me a penny of child support yet feels he can buy her a motorcycle.

                      Anyway, I make just over $100k a year, yes, I've worked 25 yrs, started at $30k, have worked hard, worked my way up and have never been unemployed. His disability is grossed up to about $60K. Between kids house, paying debt, lawyers bills, to put it mildly, I'm struggling financially.

                      We've figured out equalization, now I will owe him $289K, based on his share of house and my pension. Now, this week his lawyer advised that he expects a cash payout of the equalization, not a pension rollout. I don't know how they expect me to come up with this in cash. As far as I understand, I will discuss with my lawyer, I can pay him out any way I choose so he won't have a choice but to expect majority from pension rollout.

                      Now, from what I've read, SS is not necessarily based on entitlement alone or income disparity. In our case, I have kept matrimonial home, although still in both our names. It is a very modest 35 yr old 3 bdrm home, nothing extraordinary and requires renos which I cannot afford at the moment.

                      Regardless of whether I keep the house or have to sell it and move, I will have to pay minimum of $1500 per month for either rent or mortgage to have a place for me and 2 girls. My ex lives in a duplex home that is leased by his brother's company as it doubles as company office when they do meetings in the city which is not very often. That said, they charge him $750/monthly for a room but he has the whole house to himself. And he pays no utilities. I know they say people should maintain same standard of living as when they were married but truth be told, there's no way my ex could maintain a home. I've already heard of cleanliness issues where he's living. Luckily for him, he has a very supportive family who will do anything for him and should his disability ever stop, I have not doubt that he will have a place in his brother's company.

                      I absolutely cannot understand how any judge would expect me to pay mid range SS in this case, but that is what they are insisting on.

                      Any more insight/advice before I meet with my lawyer?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Breezer View Post
                        We've figured out equalization, now I will owe him $289K, based on his share of house and my pension. Now, this week his lawyer advised that he expects a cash payout of the equalization, not a pension rollout. I don't know how they expect me to come up with this in cash. As far as I understand, I will discuss with my lawyer, I can pay him out any way I choose so he won't have a choice but to expect majority from pension rollout.

                        I absolutely cannot understand how any judge would expect me to pay mid range SS in this case, but that is what they are insisting on.

                        Any more insight/advice before I meet with my lawyer?
                        A judge probably would not expect any of that. Your ex's lawyer probably doesn't either.

                        But it is your ex's lawyer's job to make this sort of demand. The lawyer is supposed to try to get the best deal possible for your ex, and they often do it by scare tactics. The lawyer may be advising your ex privately that it is highly unlikely, if not downright impossible, but they will demand it nonetheless, and never look like they have any doubts.

                        This can affect the results in one of two main ways:

                        If you cave in from the bullying during the negotiation stage, they win!

                        If it goes to court, a judge can usually only award things that they ask for, so they have to ask for the best case scenario for themselves. If you can't come up with solid reasons to oppose it, they win!

                        So your job, with your lawyer's assistance, is to come up with reasonable rebuttals, backed by documented facts, why their position is unreasonable and yours is not.

                        It shouldn't be too hard, from the sounds of it. Don't panic, take deep breaths, roll your eyes at their scare tactics, and get to work with your own counter-offer.

                        In negotiations, it's normal for people to ask for the most outrageous price, and be willing to settle for less, somewhere in between the two extremes. That translates to family law.

                        I think it's unfortunate, because if one person is reasonable and the other is extreme, then the middle of that still unfairly favours the extreme person.

                        It's extremely standard for pension administrators to section off spousal divorce payouts into locked-in RRSPs.

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                        • #13
                          I'm no expert but I think the way you pay out depends on where the equalization comes from... if the majority is from your pension then the majority of his equalization should come from the pension however if there is a large chunk that comes from the house I do think he can argue he should get that as a cash payout... so you would have to remortgage for what you owe him and pay him out that way.

                          To me that makes sense... you can't pay him all in pensions and keep the house all to yourself... you could turn around and sell the house in a month and all the sudden have an influx of cash while he has to wait for the pension. Again I am no expert it just seems to make sense


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                          • #14
                            Love your name !

                            Comment

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