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University, s.7, 1/3 – 2/3… a first hand experience

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  • University, s.7, 1/3 – 2/3… a first hand experience

    Finally got my day in court… and very strange it was…

    Here’s some info (and myths debunked) for common questions on the forum in regards to child’s contributions towards their University Education.

    Today was my first full blown Motion Hearing….. I initiated it a year ago to modify child support to reflect the fact the kids have moved out of her house and are attending university.

    This was a Full Motion… however after 2 hours the (very) Senior Ontario Justice just gave up, adjourned the hearing and said solve it ourselves or get another Justice. He did provide us with 2 additional hours as a Settlement Conference, but nothing was resolved and we now have a date in October to continue the Settlement Conference.

    Couple of issues he was very pointed on:
    1) Adult Children are *NOT* expected to contribute a penny towards their university education. i.e. the 1/3 – 2/3 concept is an illusion and not cast in stone. Parents must pay everything unless the child earns at least $8k/year.

    2) Adult Children are *NOT* expected to work during the summer…. And even if the child works, the parents are expected to provide undocumented “beer money” (he called it) during the school year, in addition to the usual list of expenses.

    3) Do *NOT* try and budget and allocate the RESP over the course of their education. Drain it… then deal with the fallout.

    4) Receipts are not necessarily required. The word of the custodial parent is sufficient in come cases.

    This was my first experience confronting a decision making judge.
    After a lifetime of saving and planning so my kids wouldn’t have to worry about these years, I continue to be so beyond disillusioned, both with her and with the system, that words elude me.

    The best interest of the Children is the last thing happening....

  • #2
    Strange. I thought one went to motion when settlement wasn't achieved. Did you previously go through settlement conference circus before motion?

    Comment


    • #3
      From the Case Conference we were ordered straight to Motion hearing as the issue was deemed "simple".

      Knowing her, the SC will accomplish nothing... but I really can't believe a judge is allowed to just "give up" at an actual Motion Hearing.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by SomeGuy View Post
        From the Case Conference we were ordered straight to Motion hearing as the issue was deemed "simple".

        Knowing her, the SC will accomplish nothing... but I really can't believe a judge is allowed to just "give up" at an actual Motion Hearing.
        You self represented?

        Judges can order a SC on the matter from a motion. 2 hours is a "long motion" and surprising that you got that much time. General motion hearings are 15 minutes.

        Comment


        • #5
          We both self rep... It was scheduled as a long motion. Didn't know an SC could be ordered from a motion... I was so hoping that being a "Motion", a final order would finally be made.

          If history is any indication, SCs are completely useless as there is no way on earth she will voluntarily agree to anything. SC > Motion > SC > Motion...

          gawd... this will never end

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          • #6
            Might have been the reason the judge was so difficult too. Also, when you say "confronted", this is worrisome. The judge might have also been unhappy with the approach.

            Hopefully the next judge is different.

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            • #7
              Here is a recent decision from Alberta Court of Appeal

              https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abca/do...16abca177.html

              Comment


              • #8
                Important to note the statement of "means of the parents". Keep that in mind. Higher income earners are expected to pay more for their kids' education.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks Arabian for the link!

                  I have a pretty good, but in no way extravagant income. She doesn't work at all. Paying their "entire" University will cream us both.

                  Judge was very clear there will be NO contribution from the kids... even though both are working. Anyway, since I've got time, ugh, again... it's back to case law research...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thats such bs especially if kid is eligible for grants from OSAP. They dont have to use the loans, they can use the tuition discount if eligible and the grant money.

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                    • #11
                      Back in front of the judge again today... now 15 months trying to change CS as both kids have left home for University.

                      This was a SC with the same judge who declared (in June) the full motion was "unresolvable".

                      Essentially, judge wasn't overly prepared (didn't read either SC brief), and nothing was resolved. He basically said to start the full motion overall again from scratch.

                      Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                      Thats such bs especially if kid is eligible for grants from OSAP. They dont have to use the loans, they can use the tuition discount if eligible and the grant money.
                      The kids *are* eligible for OSAP, but it is about 12% of their overall costs. Yes, this does count as the childs contribution.

                      Couple of key points which were re-emphasized:
                      - In Ontario (his emphasis), no child should be expected to contribute a penny of their money towards University... unless they earned $8-10k during the summer... in which case a $2k contribution would be appropriate. He was pretty clear that every judge (in Ontario) thinks this way.
                      I brought up case law (saying the opposite) from other provinces which he dismissed outright.
                      - No child is expected to work during the summer.
                      - Absolutely no receipts or proof of payments are expected for living expenses. Now that we have a full year under our belts with off-campus living, I said there should be hard evidence of the costs.... no way he said... he just made up an arbitrary number and said it shall be so.
                      - Full trust is given to the custodial parent that ALL s.7 payments (from each party) will be given to the children. No receipts or proof of payments required. He said his job is to sort out the difference between me and her... how the money gets to the kids is out of his concern.

                      One of my boys has a more expensive vehicle and cell phone than myself... and both will have more disposable income..

                      My numbness continues...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Perhaps the judge read the Alberta Court of Appeal decision which I forwarded to you earlier in this thread?

                        https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abca/do...16abca177.html

                        ...We do make one comment, and that is with respect to the order that each child bear responsibility for repayment of one third of her student loan. In making that order, the chambers judge appeared to be of the view that he was required in law to order that the children share in the payment of those student loans. No such absolute requirement exists in law. Although many courts have stated that adult children should make a reasonable contribution to their education, the question of what is reasonable is very much a matter in the discretion of the trial judge and will vary with the circumstances of the child and of the parents. With respect to student loan debt, in particular, courts are often reluctant to require children to incur debt to fund their education where parents have the means to assist: see, e.g., Montalto v Montalto, 2011 ABQB 574 (CanLII) at paras 27-28; Rebenchuk v Rebenchuk, 2007 MBCA 22 (CanLII), 279 DLR (4th) 448; WPN v BJN, 2005 BCCA 7 (CanLII), 249 DLR (4th) 352.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I did read that Arabian... and it does appear that he followed that philosophy... it all comes down to the definition of "reasonable".

                          I had a several caselaw with the kids paying "something".. not even 1/3... but this judge said, "a child must make at least $8k during the summer to even be considered to make a contribution."

                          I am in no means asking that a child goes into debt, but on an education which costs $25k/year, "having the means to assist" hits me extremely hard... and a kid paying 10% of that I don't think is "unreasonable".

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Maybe by refiling the motion it might reset some discussions?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Possibly... but he was very adamant, "all judges in Ontario think this way".

                              Who knows...

                              In the grand scheme of things I simply want the kids to show a "little" responsibility by kicking in $2k/yr on a $25k/yr education...

                              Problem now is she is so much in arrears to both me and the kids, getting that straightened out is harder with each passing month.... "resetting" discussions is becoming secondary.

                              This should not be rocket science... and the fact that after 16 months the Ontario Justice System can't sort out a simple issue is what kills me.

                              Even if one thinks I am the problem.. the fact this will drag on another year or more is beyond disgusting.

                              Doesn't ANYONE think of the Children ??????????? Aaaarrrggghh!

                              Comment

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