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Spousal Support - Why It Matters

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  • #46
    Since separation, I take care of my 3 kids half (a little more than half actually), and work full time of course.

    I don't agree that a stay at home parent is as hard as a job - a real job with responsibilities and bosses and time lines etc, I'm not talking about some jobs that are low effort.

    When I was married, I worked full time, my spouse did not work. I helped with the house and kids equally while I was not working. I paid all the bills and services, did all maintenance and renovations on two houses, kept care of the cars, as well as helping with house cleaning etc. Most people I talk to say how good she had it, but I never thought too much about, but I also feel she didn't appreciate that she did have it good.

    If all I had to do was just take care of my kids while my spouse was at work (and I worked a lot at home and helped during the day!) such as my ex did, that would have been way easier than I had it.

    As for now where I still have the same 2 houses, and take care of the kids half the time, and work full time - I actually find my life easier!

    For her, it is a struggle dealing with home ownership etc and she constantly complains to me about how over worked she is (hello - its called a job, like every one else, no overtime even).

    In fact in her dating profile that I came across recently, she mentions how she used to be a stay at home mom walking the beach, drinking coffee and is now a busy working woman! But do I get a thanks for all that nice time on the beach? Nope

    FYI, I pay spousal support, but it is a reasonable amount and fixed duration because she does not make as much as she used to, but soon will.

    So I don't buy how hard a stay at home mom is - I think it is easier than a real job, combined with having kids to come home to.
    Last edited by billm; 03-01-2011, 07:05 PM.

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    • #47
      So 'real' work is only qualified by having a boss and timelines?

      Daycare workers do a alot of the same things as stay-at-home parents minus the housework and real parenting responsibilities, however they get to clock out at 5:00 when all the kids go home.

      Stay-at-home parents don't, they parent 24/7, manage the household, doctor, dentist, school, volunteering and all the other responsibilities that go along with being a parent as opposed to a daycare worker.

      But parenting isn't considered 'real work' and daycare worker is?

      Consider the cost of what you'd have paid for a nanny/daycare, housekeeper, chauffeur etc to do all the things a typical stay at home parent does and then tell me there is no value to the work one does as a stay at home parent.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
        So 'real' work is only qualified by having a boss and timelines?

        Daycare workers do a alot of the same things as stay-at-home parents minus the housework and real parenting responsibilities, however they get to clock out at 5:00 when all the kids go home.

        Stay-at-home parents don't, they parent 24/7, manage the household, doctor, dentist, school, volunteering and all the other responsibilities that go along with being a parent as opposed to a daycare worker.

        But parenting isn't considered 'real work' and daycare worker is?

        Consider the cost of what you'd have paid for a nanny/daycare, housekeeper, chauffeur etc to do all the things a typical stay at home parent does and then tell me there is no value to the work one does as a stay at home parent.
        Umm I never said it was not valued - my ex made good money before we had our first child, and then she stopped working - having one of us stay home during the day was essentially invaluable!

        And when I said 'real' it was a colloquialism meaning something you got paid for - I don't think anyone missed that.

        I've done both - stay at home, and worked full time (and then come home to be a parent), and they don't compare - a career type job is harder and more stressful as compared to staying home with the kids during the day - that is my experience anyway.
        Last edited by billm; 03-02-2011, 12:55 AM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by billm View Post
          I don't agree that a stay at home parent is as hard as a job - a real job with responsibilities and bosses and time lines etc, I'm not talking about some jobs that are low effort.
          When you trivialize the role of stay at home parents, as you did there^^, you diminish the value of the person's contribution.

          I imagine you would still consider your day job 'real work' if you did not get paid for it?

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          • #50
            Support payments

            Finally had case conference after four years of separation last month. My health was the main reason for the delays due to several major surgeries. My wannabe X, was not pushing for the divorce, because she will have to pay me support, as she has the better paying job.
            I would liketo know when the time comes that the support payments are being paid, can they be backdated to date of separation? It totals 42 months, and many many thousands of dollars owing.
            TKU
            P.S. happy spring to all.

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            • #51
              Hi I understand the law and what is right and wrong
              regarding this gentleman let not forget fact that half of the daycare would be her responsibility , if she was working , full time out of the house .
              What about when your X is collecting child ( kids living with Father full time without hearing from the mother at all,and spousal support) (while she is living full time with a boyfriend as come-law for over 3 years ) and court keeps telling you to keep paying till a new order is made by the courts
              THAT IS HARD ISN'T IT?
              I do feel for Parents male or female who gets screwed be the system
              \THIS IS NOT FARE
              And now still in court when she wants spousal support (so i have to support Her and Her Boyfriend?
              I can hardly support myself and my kids, I work hard to raise my kids (kids are our joy of life)
              NOT to support others that refuse to find full time work

              THAT HURTSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS OUCH

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              • #52
                Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
                So 'real' work is only qualified by having a boss and timelines?

                Daycare workers do a alot of the same things as stay-at-home parents minus the housework and real parenting responsibilities, however they get to clock out at 5:00 when all the kids go home.

                Stay-at-home parents don't, they parent 24/7, manage the household, doctor, dentist, school, volunteering and all the other responsibilities that go along with being a parent as opposed to a daycare worker.

                But parenting isn't considered 'real work' and daycare worker is?

                Consider the cost of what you'd have paid for a nanny/daycare, housekeeper, chauffeur etc to do all the things a typical stay at home parent does and then tell me there is no value to the work one does as a stay at home parent.
                All the stay at home parents of the world thank you Very well said.

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                • #53
                  If you can not get fired at the job, it is nonsense to make an equivalence with any other job where you can get fired.

                  Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
                  Consider the cost of what you'd have paid for a nanny/daycare, housekeeper, chauffeur etc to do all the things a typical stay at home parent does and then tell me there is no value to the work one does as a stay at home parent.
                  ... and then compare it to the cost of firing a bad spouse.
                  Hiring a nanny, a chauffeur, an escort, etc. may actually be cheaper with the added bonus of accountable service.

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                  • #54
                    So a union job isn't a real job? Good to know, or as they say 'Tell it to my union.....'

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                    • #55
                      ..... still probably cheaper than firing a bad spouse.
                      Your union example is pretty funny, come to think of it. You are providing evidence of how a non-fireable job is too expensive. That is my point.

                      Regardless, I never said that it is not a real job. You are reading what you want to read. I said that making an equivalence with other jobs is nonsense.

                      It makes as much sense as making an equivalence between eye doctors and witch doctors because they are both doctors. Then again, we are dealing with rules that were created by lawyers....

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Divorcemanagement View Post
                        I closed a previous thread about child support because it had morphed into a discussion about spousal support. There were some very heated exchanges which are always a good thing because they help each of us understand why we feel so strongly about the issue.

                        Some people believe that it is a lifetime pension and some don't - generally those who oppose spousal support oppose it because they often don't recognize the value of the contributions of stay-at-home parents to a spouse's career.

                        I deal with spousal support a lot and I have heard probably every conceivable objection to it. Some are legitimate and some are downright unrealistic. So I thought it might be helpful to share an experience I had with a couple.

                        It was a 23 year marriage - the children were now grown. Mom had stayed home for the first 10 years raising the children and then worked part-time for the remaining 10 years. Dad worked in a very high profile job and had an affair, thus ending the marriage.

                        When the marriage ended, mom went to work full time as an administrative clerk and dad fought her tooth and nail on spousal. He suggested that she wasn't entitled to spousal support because she was living "rent free" in the now paid off matrimonial home. Mom rightly suggested that she wasn't living rent free because she owned half of the house. (A valid point, wouldn't you agree?)

                        Dad was unprepared to pay spousal support beyond 3 years - a completely unrealistic time frame. It looked like both parties were going to be headed off to court when they decided to give mediation a try.

                        In the mediation process, dad was adament - HE didn't "force" her to stay home and raise the kids and he didn't agree to it... why should he be penalized for mom's choice to stay home. Mom took great offense, so I suggested that it would be difficult to justify not paying spousal support were he to litigate the matter based solely on the fact that he didn't force mom to stay home and that he never agreed to something that was defacto regardless of the circumstances surrounding the decision for mom to stay home.

                        So we looked at his lump sum offer that he had now put on the table - $80K - "leave me alone and never ask me for a cent again." I went to my flip board and asked him how much money he felt that child care was worth. He couldn't come up with a number - largely because it was a traditional marriage and he worked 15 hour days.

                        We decided to do some math based on a $10.00/hour day and 40 hours/week that a child care provider in a daycare might be earning. Roughly $19,200/year X 15 years that she was home with the kids= $288,000 compared to the $80,000 that he was offering to her. So in effect, he was offering her roughly $5333 for each year that she worked or $2.77/hour.

                        This helped dad recognize that his offer aside from being offensive to mom, was completely unrealistic and not consistent with the spousal support guidelines. So mom suggested that had they put the kids in daycare, it could be argued that they would have paid the $288,000 for 15 years worth of child care in it's various incarnations - from daycare to afterschool care to day camps, etc.

                        Dad simply felt that he shouldn't have to pay because he viewed it as his money rather than compensation. Unfortunately, we had to do a cost benefit analysis of litigation based on a less than 50% chance that he would be successful and dad realized that he wasn't a gambling man. Opted to do a hybrid approach of spousal/month and a lump sum.

                        I asked dad if he felt that mom's contribution to raising the children, caring for the home and feeding the family was worth only $2.00/hour - "that's about $5.00/hour less than you would be paying a nanny or a housekeeper - do you really want to go to court with this?" I said.

                        Reason prevailed and an agreement was reached. Dad was resentful of having to pay but realized that he had to pay lest he go to court and be forced to pay.

                        Moral of the story - stay-at-home parents are undervalued in our society. One need only look at the furor over the Conservative governments proposed child care package to see that how it polarizes people. I am a realist and spousal support, aside from being compensatory, must also recognize the limitations that primarily women face when re-entering the workforce after having stayed home with the kids for a lengthy period.

                        I have heard every argument against spousal support - and save for short term marriages, it is a necessity for parents who stayed home and lost out on opportunities they would otherwise have received. It's not enough to argue that you never agreed that they should stay home - that they stayed home implies that it was consentual and as such, spousal support should be paid.

                        I would be interested in hearing from people who are receiving spousal support before the spousal support guidelines came out as to whether they think the guidelines are helpful or harmful - I have heard they are undervaluing mom's contribution from many women.

                        Thoughts?
                        I agree with this. Even though I have no kids I know how much it costs as someone I used to work with always complained about it

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                        • #57
                          When my son turned 3 my ex suggested I stop working. he made enough and it was pointless me working and paying daycare. AFter being together5 years, common law, we got married. lasted two years. Then all of a sudden I should be working full time. I was left in the home, unemployed with a child in school. after fighting in court, I was granted spousal and child support. The first two years,he was in arrears 30 thousand dollars, I had to borrow, work odd jobs, and he would pay here and there when Fro could pin him down….I was given spousal support for an "Undetermined" amount of time. I have been getting my support regularly for two years. all in a lump sum. I am now worse off than I was because I owe the government 11 thousand dollars due to me getting a lump sum. I make 15 thousand, still with a child in grade school. He works away weeks/months at a time, and still am unable to secure a job as he has shifted changed, and twisted our court ordered visits so I am just gobsmacked. Now he has sent me a letter through his HIGH end legal firm that he wants to withdrawal spousal support. His child support has gone up as his income has doubled to 150,000 a year. He wants to dump the spousal. I can't afford a lawyer. and because of my lump sum, my income has now made me so I cannot get legal aid….so, I ask is this all worth it…Im feeling so run over.

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                          • #58
                            I totally understand what you are saying. I do not want to be supported forever, but I do want the hand up to get my life back. Prior to us being common law. I had drug and dental benefits with my employer, as well, I had worked from the age of 18. I had never been without a job or benefits. When he went outside our marriage, and HE wanted a divorce..I was put into a situation of NOTHING without warning or choice. I am not in this for revenge, I just want to be able to support myself, and with that, I need his help. Im almost there, and I have not been a full-time mom since we split. I have folded laundry in a laundry facility, Done pedicures, and swept floors and washed hair..I still have to care for my child between school and I work on weekends. I have to take him with me if I don't have care. I am just wanting what I am entitled, and he is trying to cut it off for spite. I am prepared to reduce it, but not to have it pulled completely. the court saw I was entitled. Commonlaw played a part. I just want to be able to word a letter back to his lawyer that offers a fair agreement.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by geena View Post
                              I totally understand what you are saying. I do not want to be supported forever, but I do want the hand up to get my life back. Prior to us being common law. I had drug and dental benefits with my employer, as well, I had worked from the age of 18. I had never been without a job or benefits. When he went outside our marriage, and HE wanted a divorce..I was put into a situation of NOTHING without warning or choice. I am not in this for revenge, I just want to be able to support myself, and with that, I need his help. Im almost there, and I have not been a full-time mom since we split. I have folded laundry in a laundry facility, Done pedicures, and swept floors and washed hair..I still have to care for my child between school and I work on weekends. I have to take him with me if I don't have care. I am just wanting what I am entitled, and he is trying to cut it off for spite. I am prepared to reduce it, but not to have it pulled completely. the court saw I was entitled. Commonlaw played a part. I just want to be able to word a letter back to his lawyer that offers a fair agreement.

                              There has been some controversy here regarding men getting a raw edal when it comes to divorces. I tend to disagree except when it comes to spousal support. At the end of the day, we are responsible for ourselves. Aswomen, who claim to be happily married, it is naieve to not have some kind of fall back plan, some kind of money saved to the side...especially if you are a stay at home mom. It is irresponsible otherwise.

                              You keep mentioning your child...stop using him as an excuse. You are a grown woman. And stop using your husband as your provider. Who cares how much he makes now...You are not with him now. He is no longer.

                              If you aren't getting enough hours at work, get another part time job...change careers. He should not be responsible for you. A $1200 payment is huge in terms of living expenses. Take it and let it be the end. Honestly, its situations like yours that give women a bad name. Do you know how much ss support I get? Zero. Do you know how much child support I get?? Zero. Do you know how much my ex has a history of making??/ 100k plus. Ss for me was never even an issue. I was the same scenario as you. I was a university grad, always employed until my daughter was born and we were sent on internation assignments so my work stopped. I however am grown and am capable of taking care of myself.

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                              • #60
                                This isn't a debate. I know I am fortunate. I was given a court order due to my rights and entitlement. You should be receiving support unless you were unable to obtain it legally or you did not want it. I am seeking advice as to how to proceed to make this fair with resolution at the end. I do not want to be supported forever. I did not save for a rain day for myself. I did save for our family when I was a home maker. Now I do work. And like my life before. I am getting training and still caring for my child. I cannot work full time and go to school and care for my child without it affecting my son. My ex does not have an issue with child support. I use every dime on my child he goes without nothing like his life with both his patents. I am hoping to get feed back on how to respond to his lawyer with a counter offer and the last thread a out the slope of decreasing seems to be a good place to start. With a resolution with an end. Thank you for your input.

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