Karma is a bitch

[Links17]

In your case maybe not nor in the case of many of the women on this forum, but that doesn't mean there isn't a trend.

Interesting point about the referraly to therapy option - maybe that does show women are more interested to save the marriage.

[caranna]

It breaks my heart to hear about abusive relationships, I cringe when I see any sort of abusive relationship and I often will comment or intervene. I'm happy to say my 8yr old son has taken this habit after me and he actually he told his teacher that an autistic Grade 4 child was being picked on (he is in Grade 2) and the teacher went and dealt with it.

Links17, I commend you for raising your son to be compassionate and attentive. So many males are raised to be thought of as the entitled gender, you know, "boys will be boys", and the girls raised as "sugar and spice and everything nice". This does not bode well for future relationships for either gender.

I'll comment another time on the possible reasons women initiate divorce more often.

[Pursuinghappiness]

-My assertion is that the top reasons initiate divorce are "soft reasons" . i.e: growing apart, affection etc... I believe that those reasons are frivolous if there is a will to change or recognition of how large a problem they are in the grand scheme of things and also weighed against the alternative impact against children, future partner being worse etc....

By your definition, I probably got divorced for "frivolous, soft" reasons. However, my children are much better for me having done it. So am I.

I think its horrible for kids to be raised in loveless household where two people have zero respect for each other, don't take care of each other, and hate being in each other's company. I guess I think spouses caring about each other is important.

By the way, my new partner got divorced for very similar reasons and he's male...go figure.

[Links17]

By your definition, I probably got divorced for "frivolous, soft" reasons. However, my children are much better for me having done it. So am I.

I think its horrible for kids to be raised in loveless household where two people have zero respect for each other, don't take care of each other, and hate being in each other's company. I guess I think spouses caring about each other is important.

By the way, my new partner got divorced for very similar reasons and he's male...go figure.

Can't judge anybody marriage need love no doubt but there are some clear reasons for divorce like abuse (physical, emotional etc...) and there are other reasons that sometimes take some work, patience, introspection and/or reassesment etc...

The FACT of the matter that has been proven over and over again is.
A) divorce screws up kids
B) a lot of ppl eventually regret divorce
C) a lot of ppl were happier before divorce
D) second marrriages fail more often than first
E) children of divorce are more likely to divorce
F) wallerstein stuff shows divorce to be the major negative incident in the life a person (even at 35yrs of age)
G) divorced children are on average worse in every measurement etc...

So before you pull the trigger you better have searched under every rock and climbed every tree and then make sure the problems you are having are worth divorcing (the proverbial divorcing over dirty dishes...)

Some people will say "omg divorce has made me a super hero and I am free to blah blah..."
Their arguments are by no means convincing but its their life so theyy can do they please

Other people divorce is the clear solution.

I like to think of divorce as the worst solution to marriage problems, in that its barely a solution

[Mess]

The FACT of the matter that has been proven over and over again is.
A) divorce screws up kids

A lot of things can screw up kids. We all have things in our lives that screw us up, other things that mitigate this, and other things that build us up. Divorce does not mean a certainty of any particular future for the children.

B) a lot of ppl eventually regret divorce

A "lot?" Quantify this. 99%? 30%? what is "A lot??"

C) a lot of ppl were happier before divorce

See above. As well, a "lot" of people were happier before they found out about the reasons for divorce, such as, financial malfeasance, affairs, etc.

D) second marrriages fail more often than first

A measure of the quality of marriage, or a quality of the people involved?

E) children of divorce are more likely to divorce

So? Are you making an assumption that marriage is always preferable to non-marriage?

F) wallerstein stuff shows divorce to be the major negative incident in the life a person (even at 35yrs of age)

Who the hell is wallerstein and why should I care what they think?

G) divorced children are on average worse in every measurement

This is not a reasonable assertion and I defy you to prove "every."

etc...

Whatever.

[arabian]

Can't judge anybody marriage need love no doubt but there are some clear reasons for divorce like abuse (physical, emotional etc...) and there are other reasons that sometimes take some work, patience, introspection and/or reassesment etc...

The FACT of the matter that has been proven over and over again is.
A) divorce screws up kids
B) a lot of ppl eventually regret divorce
C) a lot of ppl were happier before divorce
D) second marrriages fail more often than first
E) children of divorce are more likely to divorce
F) wallerstein stuff shows divorce to be the major negative incident in the life a person (even at 35yrs of age)
G) divorced children are on average worse in every measurement etc...

So before you pull the trigger you better have searched under every rock and climbed every tree and then make sure the problems you are having are worth divorcing (the proverbial divorcing over dirty dishes...)

Some people will say "omg divorce has made me a super hero and I am free to blah blah..."
Their arguments are by no means convincing but its their life so theyy can do they please

Other people divorce is the clear solution.

I like to think of divorce as the worst solution to marriage problems, in that its barely a solution

You are throwing out many alleged facts. Can you substantiate any of your "facts"? I would be interested in knowing where you get your information from (sources).

[stripes]

Wallerstein is Judith Wallerstein, an American psychologist who studied the impacts of divorce on children and found they were mostly negative. Her research is highly popularized and interesting, but flawed in two ways:

1. Recall bias: she was asking adults about their memories of childhood experiences, rather than tracking those experiences as they happened. What we remember (or tell researcher we remember) is not necessarily what happened, as we refine and edit our memories over time.

2. Sample bias: Wallerstein's sample was young adults who sought out psychological help for distress. She found that a high proportion of them came from households which had experienced divorce. This is not the same as taking a sample of kids from households which experience divorce and seeing what proportion of them express psychological problems later in life, which would give you a better idea of whether divorce makes a difference for children's outcomes.

If you want better research on the impacts of divorce, there's Lisa Strohschein's work (Canadian) and the work of Andrew Cherlin and Frank Furstenberg (American). Both manage to avoid those biases and both conclude that children from divorced families have (in general) better outcomes than children whose parents stay together but who have highly conflictual or hostile relationships. This research is more statistical and technical and doesn't lend itself to snappy sound bites like "Divorce messes up kids!", so you don't see it on Oprah or on people's blogs like you do Wallerstein.

Your mileage may vary, of course - research can give you odds and likelihoods of different outcomes, but can't predict what will happen in individual cases.

[Pursuinghappiness]

A) divorce screws up kids

Just my opinion but I think bad marriages screw up a lot of kids too. I also didn't have this experience personally...I was very glad when my own mother and stepfather got divorced. And I haven't had this experience with my own divorce. My children are MUCH happier since my separation...at least with me. Its a lot easier for me to focus on parenting being out of my crappy marriage. Bad marriages drain your energy.

B) a lot of ppl eventually regret divorce

C) a lot of ppl were happier before divorce

lol....Take a poll on just this forum of how many people were happier in their bad marriages. Again, this doesn't apply to me or anyone else I know that's gone through a divorce. Personally, once I got separated, I had female friends walking up to me and commenting on how much better I looked, how much happier I was, etc....then they asked me for the name of my divorce lawyer. To date, I've referred 6 women to my divorce lawyer. Divorce is catchy for a reason. There's a lot of very miserable married people out there.

E) children of divorce are more likely to divorce

Frankly if my kids get married and end up being in miserable, unproductive marriages, I hope they do get divorced and do it a whole lot sooner than I did.

F) wallerstein stuff shows divorce to be the major negative incident in the life a person (even at 35yrs of age)

I would consider my divorce a major positive incident. It literally is the marking line between a very disconnected, difficult time in my life and a new level of awareness and optimism.


I truly loathe generalizations because they are often quoted to fit one's own reality. Your generalizations are spun out of your own experience...its pretty clear based on your posts on this forum how bitter and angry you are about your own divorce. So your response to that is to try to demean women...particularly women who choose to leave bad marriages. You want to project blame upon them for every evil in the world. You truly loathe the idea that a woman might leave a terrible marriage and actually be happy. It really gets under your skin. Frankly, I find it amusing since not one of your generalization applies to me. Divorce can be a wonderful, liberating experience and can free one to find a better life, in my opinion.

By the way, if you took a poll on this forum of how many people are happier after divorce, you wouldn't like the answer.

[hadenough]

AGREE! AGREE! AGREE! Thanks, PursuingHappiness. You always hit the nail right on the head.

[Links17]

First of all, I have a policy that I try to focus on the truth and not on "being right". This is a journey a lot of us are going through and for the benefit of ourselves as well as future readers we can all present our perspectives with proof ideally so that we learn and people who come after us learn.

That being said, I'll make a new thread -

I'm not bitter against women or even my whore Ex (Karma will deal with her ) - People are good, bad, evil and I always knew that. I'm bitter against a system that I've had to practically sacrifice a year of my life and 3 years of my financial comfort to combat..... Even then I understand why somethings are in the system and I recognize in other situations how they can be beneficial.

I research most things fairly heavily not to prove I am right but to learn from others. A fool learns from their own mistakes a wise person learns from the mistakes of others.

[arabian]

A fool learns from their own mistakes a wise person learns from the mistakes of others.

I guess I'm a wise fool then

[Links17]

Wallerstein is Judith Wallerstein, an American psychologist who studied the impacts of divorce on children and found they were mostly negative. Her research is highly popularized and interesting, but flawed in two ways:

1. Recall bias: she was asking adults about their memories of childhood experiences, rather than tracking those experiences as they happened. What we remember (or tell researcher we remember) is not necessarily what happened, as we refine and edit our memories over time.

2. Sample bias: Wallerstein's sample was young adults who sought out psychological help for distress. She found that a high proportion of them came from households which had experienced divorce. This is not the same as taking a sample of kids from households which experience divorce and seeing what proportion of them express psychological problems later in life, which would give you a better idea of whether divorce makes a difference for children's outcomes.

If you want better research on the impacts of divorce, there's Lisa Strohschein's work (Canadian) and the work of Andrew Cherlin and Frank Furstenberg (American). Both manage to avoid those biases and both conclude that children from divorced families have (in general) better outcomes than children whose parents stay together but who have highly conflictual or hostile relationships. This research is more statistical and technical and doesn't lend itself to snappy sound bites like "Divorce messes up kids!", so you don't see it on Oprah or on people's blogs like you do Wallerstein.

Your mileage may vary, of course - research can give you odds and likelihoods of different outcomes, but can't predict what will happen in individual cases.

The wallerstein study is valuable eactly BECAUSE it doesn't turn our lives into technical measurements of how we achieve in school instead it actually find out how people feel about things?

Do you care if your child does well in school or they are happy? If you did an empirical study you might conclude that "Look, he is fine...." but once you ask the child then you see they are hurting. Wallerstein's study is valuable for that insight and it seems to completely stemmed a pro-divorce "it has no impact on the children" movement.

[Links17]

New Thread.
http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...75/#post156122

[Pursuinghappiness]

Do you care if your child does well in school or they are happy? If you did an empirical study you might conclude that "Look, he is fine...." but once you ask the child then you see they are hurting.

Pretty insulting since if you've read anything on this forum, you'll realize how child-focused most of the posters are and how much they're concerned about the outcome of divorce on their children.

Children with high-conflict parents during marriage probably have a more difficult time with school, making friends, etc. Children with high-conflict parents during/after divorce probably have the same troubles. That's why most people are on this forum trying to find collaborative parenting solutions where they can to reduce conflict.

You want to dictate to everyone...particularly women...about what's best for them and how they should live their lives but your reality applies only to you. Your generalizations do not fit my personal experience with me or my children at all...and I'm sure that's true of a lot of people on here.

You can quote statistics geared to your own personal rage all you like but the fact remains that people will make their own decisions about divorce as they please. I think it truly bugs you to your core that people...particularly women....might get divorced and be happier and better off. You are an extremely negative person.

[Links17]

Pretty insulting since if you've read anything on this forum, you'll realize how child-focused most of the posters are and how much they're concerned about the outcome of divorce on their children.

It was a rhetorical, the assumption is that parents do care more about happiness than test scores....

Children with high-conflict parents during marriage probably have a more difficult time with school, making friends, etc. Children with high-conflict parents during/after divorce probably have the same troubles. That's why most people are on this forum trying to find collaborative parenting solutions where they can to reduce conflict.

High Conflict is one of the most destructive impacts on children, getting divorce to spare your children from witnessing abuse etc.... is a positive act.

You want to dictate to everyone...particularly women...about what's best for them and how they should live their lives but your reality applies only to you. Your generalizations do not fit my personal experience with me or my children at all...and I'm sure that's true of a lot of people on here.

These aren't "generalizations" in that - I agree everybody has their own personal experience. I consider them warnings, lessons, risks and reality checks. Divorce can be good - it can be GREAT but statistically it isn't but its really an individual choice.

You can quote statistics geared to your own personal rage all you like but the fact remains that people will make their own decisions about divorce as they please.

They will and they do and people also have the freedom to all sorts of things which are not healthy for them and/or children and I think that is a valuable part of the society we live in. I'm allowed to have an opinion which I in fact make an effort to defend and if somebody asks my opinion I will give it and defend it with what I understand and if I am wrong so be it, I can change and learn better.

I think it truly bugs you to your core that people...particularly women....might get divorced and be happier and better off. You are an extremely negative person.

My personal belief (intuition):
-is that part of it is an illusion that fades after time but cognitive dissonance doesn't allow backtracking.
-part of it is related to the victory women have court rooms (financially, chidren etc...)
-it could also be really crappy husbands but my money is on that most men are pretty similar and you trade one set of problems for another set.

People actually praise me often for being extremely positive and optimistic in face of what I've endured. I'm just a realist about divorce but I'm still committed to make the best of it anyways.