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  • #1
    I dont have a court order in place either, put I want one that hopefully last a few years as in "every other" year so your not running back to court every Christmas

    What do you mean by Cultural Holidays? Do you share the same faith/culture, or is this more important to one parent then the other?

    Sorry I cant respond to any legal issues, I just dont have enough experience with the courts or legal system, but will follow this post with great interest on what to do and what not to do.

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    • #2
      Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
      what is proper process for this with no court order place?
      Acting as mature adults and coming to an agreement.

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      • #3
        Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
        she wants exchanges to happen at homes I want them at the school. this one is a no brainer. would you agree?
        This isn't a hill worth dying on. I would recommend you compromise on this one so long as there is a set time that the exchange happens at.

        Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
        she wants to split March break in half. II want to alternate them. OCL has said alternate them . what is your rexommenation
        Again, not worth the battle. Either way, you get equal time for the break. Thats 100x better than most parents get on this kind of stuff. Penny wise... pound foolish. (look up what that means)

        Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
        she is picking her summer weeks over my weekends and keeping her own weekends.. wants 1 week each month to me . I am asking for half of each summer month
        Depending on the age of the children this may be a no go either way. If the children are 13+ then splitting the months is ok. <13... Not a great idea and a court wouldn't like it.

        Generally, it is each parent gets a 2 week holiday. If you are an EOW parent then, the other parent can't pick two weeks that disrupt your weekend access. If it is 50-50 the best thing in the summer is week-about for the 2 months of summer break.

        Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
        is offering me zero time on Easter even though OCL says it should be split
        You will find that the courts in Canada are not big on Easter as a holiday. Usually, they order it falls to whatever parent has access on that weekend.

        Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
        is offering me zero time on Christmas even though judge said it should be split
        Again, the standard norm is children see both parents during the winter break. It is usually 2 weeks. Split it. Some times where Christmas falls makes it a pain but, generally it isn't an issue.

        Courts will standard order access to both parents on Christmas.

        Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
        is offering me zero time on new years even though OCL said it should be split
        Like Easter... CND courts don't care about this "holiday". Generally the parent who gets the first week of Christmas holiday gets "Christmas eve and day"... The other week the other parent gets New Years and in some years... Orthodox Christmas (Jan 7th).

        Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
        is not offering any cultural holidays
        Again, courts don't generally care about these.

        Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
        we agree on 4 or 5 holidays with exception of whether exchanges happen at school or each other's homes

        so any further correspondence warranted ?
        Make an offer to settle. Compromise on some of the above. Settle your matter and move on.

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        • #4
          I agree with others on the pick up place, why make that a battle. Especially as your children get older and get themselves to and from school. Make a plan that works for a long time so you dont have to re negotiate every little thing as kids age. what benefit is picking up at school over home going to make? None. If you dont want to see ex, just text when you arrive, you dont even have to get out of the car. If your child is old enough to go to school, also old enough to walk out the door and to the car, while other parent stays inside. Also it is a pain to have to haul everything the child wants to take to your house to school, along with all of the homework, lunch bag and gym clothes etc they already have in the backpack.

          The average school ends at 3:30, the average parent ends the work day later than that, which means young children go to a sitter, an aftercare program or a stay at home parent. Older children walk home after school, go to a friends house, ride bikes around neighborhood with friends.

          My ex tried to say that pick up should be at school and away from the house. He fully expected a 13 yr old to start going to the school's after school care program (in which he would have been the only child in the 8th grade there) so that he wouldnt have to pick him up from the house. Child has been walking home from school for years by that point and most certainly did not want to go the program. Needless to say, ex picks up from the house as I was not prepared to make a child that age, or pay for a child that age, to attend a school daycare and I was pretty confident no judge would order that. Eventually he dropped it.

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          • #5
            As far as cultural holidays. Canada has a lot of cultural holidays too: Easter, chrsitmas, canada day, halloween. I think an easy way is to decide which are the most important to each and then ensure each get an even number. such as parent A get braziian cultural holiday A weekend, parent B get thanksgiving weekend. Parent A get 1 day Brazilian cultural holiday X, parent B get halloween. Then the ones you both culturally significant to each of you, share them. I dont think it is fair to say, I want to have child on all of my cultural holidays and half of all of yours too.

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            • #6
              Brazil holidays - for those who want to know

              https://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/brazil/

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              • #7
                I think that having the exchanges at school vs. at home, while not a hill to die on, is a hill that might be worth the fight. School exchanges go a long way towards reducing future conflict.


                If that was the only disagreement, then sure, exchanges at home from now on. However, in the context of disagreements over a multitude of issues, it makes no sense to drop this one.


                ...except, on further reading, it actually is a hill worth dying on...


                am also seeking to expand my regular access to school pick up and drop off, which would give child extra overnight with me, and reduce our interaction and conflict.

                If I compromise and agree, then child loses overnight access with me, and no chance to experience and enjoying being picked up by dad from school.
                This is a hill to die on. It might shape his relationship with his kids for years to come.

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                • #8
                  Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
                  OCL has recommended pick ups and drop offs happen at the school. I am also seeking to expand my regular access to school pick up and drop off, which would give child extra overnight with me, and reduce our interaction and conflict.
                  So, what you are actually saying is that it isn't about pick and drop off but, that your "idea" will get you another over-night with the child. Lets call apples apples and oranges oranges.

                  You are not negotiating the location really. You are negotiating access time. Be honest with yourself.

                  Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
                  If I compromise and agree, then child loses overnight access with me, and no chance to experience and enjoying being picked up by dad from school. Judge feels pick ups and drop offs should happen at school as well. I do not understand how agreeing to do exchanges at each other parent's would be a benefit to the child vs. from school ?
                  Again, it is a matter of access time and not the location. How about you offer to pickup the child at 4:00 PM on Friday and drop the child off at 8:00 AM on Monday at the other parent's house? You get the other night and force them to actually debate the reason they want a different location. To get back the night of overnight access.

                  *If the location is truly the issue then, they should accept an offer that simply changes the access location but, keeps the overnights the same.*

                  Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
                  Only issue I have with that is if I wanted to travel and stuff, wouldn't be possible at all. OCL has recommended full week be alternated.
                  You are from Brazil. Brazil harbours a number of abducted children in contravention of Canadian court orders. The CND courts are very familiar with these highly public cases and if someone argues it properly you will never get to take the child to Brazil. So, I would really not think too much about travel until the child is old enough to speak for themselves. (10+ years in age.)

                  Ya it sucks but, you can thank your fellow Brazilian parental child abductors for this problem and the Brazilian court system for failing to apply Hauge properly.

                  Add on top the conflict in your file and the results... EOW father traveling out of country with a child he fought to get 50-50 with. The probability of you running is much higher and the one think you will learn about the CND courts is they take NO RISKS.

                  Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
                  Any reason why courts wouldn't like 50/50 for child less than 13 ? I had 50/50 for July of last year.
                  Conflict
                  Bad parenting
                  Bad parental schedule and avalibility to the child

                  Lots of reasons...

                  No one has read your OCL and matter... So one can only assume the court relied upon any number of reasons.

                  Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
                  I am going for 50/50, and seeking 50/50 summer schedule. Judge has said I should have majority of holidays.
                  What a judge says in a conference (case, trial, settlement) has as much value as monopoly money in the real world. Sorry to say. They will never be a motion or trial judge in your matter. So, it is their opinion but, may not be shared by other judges.

                  Stop relying on it.


                  Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
                  So what is best way for me to communicate what I agree to and what I don't, in a friendly way before getting the lawyers involved ?
                  You make a formal offer to settle rewriting her terms and send it back.

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                  • #9
                    Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
                    Do I make offer to settle for only holiday stuff and leave out custody and access?


                    Do all of it. Highlight the parts - this is what I agree with, this is what I don't accept and here is what I propose instead. After enough back and forth like this, hopefully you will get nearer to resolution. Or at least you'll have winnowed down the parts you still need to go to court for.

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                    • #10
                      Originally posted by youngdad91 View Post
                      drop off next AM as opposed to school seems to irritate me for some reason.
                      You are not experienced enough with negotiations to understand I guess what I am proposing. Maybe if I position it as the "minimal viable settlement" as a pattern you may get it. (Based on the concept of "minimal viable product").

                      In a situation of M.V.S. you offer the minimally viable settlement that would resolve the issue. The trick is to tease out the "real" thing for which the other party wants.

                      In your case, the other party says it is the pickup and drop off location. But, I doubt that it is. The real issue is the Sunday overnight. So what I recommended was the minimally viable settlement that gives the other parent what they stated they wanted - drop off locations at parental homes. But, I kept the over night in the offer.

                      The other party's stated need of location is address at the minimum without impacting the overnight schedule. Sure, it may "irritate you" but, you have demonstrated a compromise without impacting the "more important" feature of what you want... The Sunday overnight.

                      Sure, if the other party accepts the offer then, you have to do it but, you kept the overnight. If they don't then you can point out to them that the negotiation is not about the drop-off and pickup location but, in fact, the overnight access. It demonstrates that they are not being clear about what they "really want". All the while you demonstrate you are willing to compromise when they are willing to misdirect.

                      How does this benefit you? At a conference. You offer the same settlement, they say no and then your lawyer points out the issue is about overnight access and not the drop-off and pickup location. (Which looks petty as hell.) Your lawyer needs to be playing out a strategy 10 steps ahead of the common stupidity of the other party and their bottom barrel lawyer.

                      You want to demonstrate to the other party that they are not being "clever". To a well-seasoned barrister, these "tactics" are common as teeth. They will have a counter strategy in the negotiations for each and every one. But, you need a lawyer who is forward thinking and drives a hard bargain.

                      Based on your questions to this forum. It is clear you don't have any experience with negotiations and settlement... Haven't done the research... and possibly don't have a lawyer who is well skilled in it.

                      Where you are now if your lawyer is not one of the top ones you are going to have a very hard time battling the OCL report and much of this. You need to be prepared to either (a) educate yourself like WOrkingDad and take control of the matter or (b) have at least 200,000 in funds to support the necessary legal fees.

                      Sorry to say... Option (a) is harder than option (b). Even if you don't have the money for option (b). WorkingDad and the other self-reps spend easily 8 hours a day researching and understanding family law.

                      Good Luck!
                      Tayken

                      Comment

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