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  • Shared/joint custody cooperation/communication requirement

    I know that generally the courts order joint and/or shared custody in cases where parents cooperate and communicate well

    parent A has custody but is claiming there is no communication or cooperation for joint/shared custody

    Parent B has access but is claiming material change and that there is cooperation and communication

    parent A wishes to have child on Christmas Day/eve weekend as well as New Year's Eve/weekend

    Parent A cancelled parent Bs visits that fell on Christmas Eve and New Years the first Christmas after order was made, parent A in writing said pick another day or you lose your visit - I know there is case law about sole custodial parents changing visits or threatening to cancel visits For access parent when they wish to do so

    Parent B had contacted parent A in advance to arrange something but Parent A was being difficult and wanted to provide work schedule, never did, and ended up giving no additional time on Christmas and cancelled visits that fell on those days

    Parent A, after being taken to court, offered parent B for time but excluded Christmas eve day and New Year's Eve and day. Parent A had the majority of the time. Parent B asked to split the break in 2 but Parent A asked for daycare costs. Parent Bs lawyer sent parent As lawyer a letter and As lawyer said these are things the parent should be able to resolve on their own - I am thinking if this is something they will use as a weapon against communication and cooperation. Parent B accepted he time that was being offered in fearing of getting no time at all

    Parent B, this year, asked to split the time in half. Parent A said she will advise what dates Parent B can see his child but will not be getting Christmas or New Years weekend. Parent As argument is that parent B doesn't célèbre ate those days. Parent A advises that she will share the reminding days in half once she has her work schedule

    Parent B also asked for travel consents and for Parent A to apply for passport.

    Parent B sent letter to OC reiterating the request and staying that that it appears Parent A wishes to have child on both Christmas and New Years weekends and to share the remaining days based on her unpredictable work schedule - once she has it from work. Parent B further stated he has time booked off work and wishes to travel with child and provided travel consents.

    Question: which parent is source of conflict here and which parent would appear as the reasonable parent here? Should parent B back down and just take whatever Parent A offers or should Parent B proceed with a motion?

    What would reflect better for joint custody? Parent A has a history of being difficult with access and denying holiday requests unreasonably and switching dates and times to suite her own needs and subsidized daycare regulations. Parent a wants parent B to pay 100% daycare costs and has stated in writing that Parent B will forfeit visits if daycare is not paid in advance , i.e., you need to give me the money or you lose your visit

    Please no jumping to conclusions. If something is not clear just ask and I will answer or clarify.


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    Last edited by trinton; 11-12-2016, 11:52 PM.

  • #2
    Joint custody is not going to solve your access disputes. Joint custody means you discuss school, medical, religion, etc... it doesn't mean time sharing.

    What you need is a defined parenting agreement so that each year you both know who has what holidays with the children. Obviously you cannot work this out between yourselves and you should follow what dispute resolution clause you have in your agreement


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    • #3
      Child support/section 7 (anything to do with money) and access are mutually exclusive, meaning you cannot withhold the child if payment is not made. There are many resources online that specifically state this that you can reference to her, including on FRO's website.

      As BF said, you need a more specific arrangement set ouy in detail to reduce the amount of conflict. If you are claiming that the two of you can, in fact, cooperate and communicate you will need to prove this- provide examples of good email communication between you two.

      Alternatively, if you cannot communicate and cooperate, consider parallel parenting.

      Either way, make sure you document all communication where she is refusing to be reasonable and especially where she is stating you must buy the time with your child by paying unreasonable expenses before being allowed to see the child

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by blinkandimgone View Post
        Child support/section 7 (anything to do with money) and access are mutually exclusive, meaning you cannot withhold the child if payment is not made. There are many resources online that specifically state this that you can reference to her, including on FRO's website.

        As BF said, you need a more specific arrangement set ouy in detail to reduce the amount of conflict. If you are claiming that the two of you can, in fact, cooperate and communicate you will need to prove this- provide examples of good email communication between you two.

        Alternatively, if you cannot communicate and cooperate, consider parallel parenting.

        Either way, make sure you document all communication where she is refusing to be reasonable and especially where she is stating you must buy the time with your child by paying unreasonable expenses before being allowed to see the child


        Thanks. My question is now. Should I just accept what ever she is offering as interim pending all decision, to show I'm the more flexible and willing parent or should I proceed solidly through for a split in half Christmas schedule

        Could they argue. These parents can't figure Christmas among themselves and joint custody or shared custody is not workable ?

        I do keep hearing parallel parenting from lawyers I meet with. I think that may be where I am headed.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by trinton View Post
          Thanks. My question is now. Should I just accept what ever she is offering as interim pending all decision, to show I'm the more flexible and willing parent or should I proceed solidly through for a split in half Christmas schedule

          Could they argue. These parents can't figure Christmas among themselves and joint custody or shared custody is not workable ?

          I do keep hearing parallel parenting from lawyers I meet with. I think that may be where I am headed.


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          Yes.

          I suggest you bring in a third party (who is not a lawyer working for either parent). Can A and B agree to go to mediation to put together a very detailed holiday schedule? Even if mediation doesn't work, showing that you tried to keep this dispute out of court is important. I agree with everyone else - you need as detailed a parenting plan as possible, leaving as little to negotiate as possible.

          Comment


          • #6
            Shared/joint custody cooperation/communication requirement

            Originally posted by stripes View Post
            Yes.



            I suggest you bring in a third party (who is not a lawyer working for either parent). Can A and B agree to go to mediation to put together a very detailed holiday schedule? Even if mediation doesn't work, showing that you tried to keep this dispute out of court is important. I agree with everyone else - you need as detailed a parenting plan as possible, leaving as little to negotiate as possible.


            So like what? Send a letter to OC requesting mediation? Have I created conflict by sending a letter to her lawyer saying her proposal for Christmas doesn't allow me to go on vacation? Or should I have discussed that with mom directly ? I requested from mom to have either first or second half and that was a no.

            Can I not argue back that mom is being unreasonable by wanting access on both weekends? Interruptions during Christmas break access doesn't allow for vacation. I can't fly out then fly back for mom to have her 6 hour or 2 day access then fly out again...

            The matter is already before the court. The final order has no holiday schedule and my requests for holidays have historically been unreasonably denied.




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            Last edited by trinton; 11-13-2016, 08:55 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by trinton View Post
              So like what? Send a letter to OC requesting mediation? Have I created conflict by sending a letter to her lawyer saying her proposal for Christmas doesn't allow me to go on vacation? Or should I have discussed that with mom directly ? I requested from mom to have either first or second half and that was a no.

              Can I not argue back that mom is being unreasonable by wanting access on both weekends? Interruptions during Christmas break access doesn't allow for vacation. I can't fly out then fly back for mom to have her 6 hour or 2 day access then fly out again...

              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
              Well, yes. A better question is whether you want to have something to argue with Mom about in court or whether you want to take a shot at resolving this so that you won't be going through the same thing every year until Kid is 18. Mediation might not get you anywhere, but it seems like you're not getting anywhere as it is.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by stripes View Post
                Well, yes. A better question is whether you want to have something to argue with Mom about in court or whether you want to take a shot at resolving this so that you won't be going through the same thing every year until Kid is 18. Mediation might not get you anywhere, but it seems like you're not getting anywhere as it is.


                I did sent to her lawyer along with my letter about my request travel consents and asked to get back to me

                I guess at this point I have to wait to see what they come back with. Last year they came back with, you don't celebrate Christmas and you don't celebrate New Years. I don't think I can let them bully me again this year.

                I also know that mom can't create conflict on purpose and then say there is no communication/cooperation.

                Is she being unreasonable by wanting to interior current court order and dictate what schedule she wants for Christmas? Technically she'll be in contempt of court if she withheld a my weekend that falls on Christmas since any other time is to be agreed upon. But I know contempt motions are sure ways to kiss your chances for joint custody goodbye.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by trinton View Post
                  I know that generally the courts order joint and/or shared custody in cases where parents cooperate and communicate well
                  That is untrue.

                  Parents that are litigating in court generally do not cooperate well. These parents have chosen to spend tens of thousands of dollars rather than come to an agreement.

                  If joint custody was only ordered for cooperative parents, then it would almost never be ordered.

                  From http://canlii.ca/t/1n29p

                  [65] In determining whether a joint custody order is appropriate, one must take care not to hold the parents to an unrealistic level of mutual co-operation. After all, they are estranged.[25] The co-operation needed is workable, not blissful; adequate not perfect. And, one must not use a too-finely-calibrated yardstick for measuring parental character. The quest for joint custody must not be restricted to those who can pass the Ozzie-and-Harriet test.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Shared/joint custody cooperation/communication requirement

                    Originally posted by Janus View Post
                    That is untrue.



                    Parents that are litigating in court generally do not cooperate well. These parents have chosen to spend tens of thousands of dollars rather than come to an agreement.



                    If joint custody was only ordered for cooperative parents, then it would almost never be ordered.



                    From http://canlii.ca/t/1n29p


                    Notice how I didn't say always and Used the word "generally" ?


                    I have dozens of other reasons that joint custody is granted absent of communication. All supported by case law.

                    To balance the power imbalance

                    To allow the other parent to obtain information from 3rd parties - when 3rd party simple won't release information unless they have custody - and there are 3rd parties that won't release information without sole custodial parents consent regardless of what the order says

                    Any many many more. But thanks, I'll add yours to my list.

                    It looks like my lawyer didn't ask for Christmas in my motion to change. Now the question becomes, can I bring a motion for something that is not in my motion to change??

                    It was discussed at settlement conference that an amendment could be done after the focus hearing but that was a private conversation....

                    Sometimes I'm just so happy my old lawyer is off the record. She tied more knots when she was supposed to be untangling knots.



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                    • #11
                      If you don't celebrate Christmas, and she does, why not let her have Christmas every year? If you want to have a whole week to travel with the child over school break, plan it for the second half. Propose that you are willing for her to have the child for the first week of Christmas holidays if you get the full second week. This shows that you are trying to negotiate reasonably.

                      Anything you think your ex is being unreasonable about, document it, and save it for later to demonstrate a history of not negotiating with you and withholding access if her demands are not met.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Rioe View Post
                        If you don't celebrate Christmas, and she does, why not let her have Christmas every year? If you want to have a whole week to travel with the child over school break, plan it for the second half. Propose that you are willing for her to have the child for the first week of Christmas holidays if you get the full second week. This shows that you are trying to negotiate reasonably.

                        Anything you think your ex is being unreasonable about, document it, and save it for later to demonstrate a history of not negotiating with you and withholding access if her demands are not met.


                        Thanks for your response. That's exactly what I proposed. She can have Christmas every year if I get new year at least every other year.

                        Reality is she is an orthodox and doesn't celebrate Christmas in December , they celebrate it in January.

                        Question now is, can I bring a motion for this although Christmas break request is not in my initial application ?

                        Is your opinionated suggestion that I should just let it go and bring it up at the final hearing ? That's what I was thinking. But I may need to bring motion for additional disclosure so I could always slip those in there.


                        And what about he idea of bringing up the issue at next court date, I.e., in first week of December? See if judge feels it reasonable for me to bring the motion ?


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Janus View Post
                          That is untrue.

                          Parents that are litigating in court generally do not cooperate well. These parents have chosen to spend tens of thousands of dollars rather than come to an agreement.

                          If joint custody was only ordered for cooperative parents, then it would almost never be ordered.

                          From http://canlii.ca/t/1n29p
                          Correct. In addition to this great case law I add:

                          V.K. v. T. S., 2011 ONSC 4305 (CanLII)
                          Date: 2011-09-09
                          Docket: DF 2217/09
                          Other citations: [2011] CarswellOnt 9144; [2011] OJ No 4046 (QL)
                          Citation: V.K. v. T. S., 2011 ONSC 4305 (CanLII)
                          http://canlii.ca/t/fn2r2

                          [72] While some measure of communication and cooperation between the parties is necessary to support a joint custody order, the court is not required to apply a standard of perfection in assessing the ability of the parents to work together. As Quinn, J. remarked in Brook v. Brook, “the cooperation needed is workable, not blissful; adequate, not perfect.”[21]

                          [73] A mere statement by one party that there is an inability to communicate will not be sufficient to preclude a joint custody order. The court must carefully consider the parties’ past and current parenting relationship to obtain the “big picture” respecting the parties’ ability to communicate, rather than simply relying on allegations of conflict by one or both of the parties, or a snapshot of the situation that exists at the time of trial.[22]

                          [74] The existence of conflict and strife between the parties from time to time will not necessarily preclude the court from making an Order for joint custody. The question to be determined is whether the conflict between the parties is impacting or likely to impact on the well-being of the children. If the evidence indicates that the parties, despite their conflict with each other, have been able to communicate, shelter the children from the conflict reasonably well, and put the children’s interests ahead of their own when necessary, an order for joint custody may be appropriate.[23] The question for the court to determine is “whether a reasonable measure of communication and cooperation is in place, and is achievable in the future, so that the best interests of the child can be ensured on an ongoing basis.”[24]

                          [75] Where an objective review of the historical and more recent evidence clearly indicates that there has never been an ability to cooperate or communicate effectively, or that one or both of the parties is/are unable to put the needs of child before their own, joint custody is not an appropriate order.[25] In these circumstances, hoping that communication between the parties will improve once the litigation is over does not provide a sufficient basis for making of order of joint custody.[26]

                          [76] In analyzing the ability of the parties to communicate, the court must delve below the surface and consider the source of the conflict. The Ontario Court of Appeal has clearly stated that one parent cannot create conflict and problems with the other parent by unreasonable conduct, impeding access, marginalizing the other parent, or by any other means and then claim sole custody on the basis of lack of cooperation and communication.[27]
                          Triton do you actually read the case law people post for you? Honestly, it doesn't seem like you are investing any time in understanding these matters. You are simply reacting to anything the other parent does without truly understanding how to navigate the situation.

                          Good Luck!
                          Tayken

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Tayken, that is the case I was searching for . I remembered the word blissful and that was it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tayken View Post
                              Correct. In addition to this great case law I add:

                              V.K. v. T. S., 2011 ONSC 4305 (CanLII)
                              Date: 2011-09-09
                              Docket: DF 2217/09
                              Other citations: [2011] CarswellOnt 9144; [2011] OJ No 4046 (QL)
                              Citation: V.K. v. T. S., 2011 ONSC 4305 (CanLII)
                              http://canlii.ca/t/fn2r2



                              Triton do you actually read the case law people post for you? Honestly, it doesn't seem like you are investing any time in understanding these matters. You are simply reacting to anything the other parent does without truly understanding how to navigate the situation.

                              Good Luck!
                              Tayken
                              Yes I do, and I have read that case.

                              What is the best way to navigate this situation? Give her both Christmas and New Years weekends and take whatever else she offers?

                              [para10] In the Lewis case, I expressed my views as to the advantages of a joint custody order. One of the common complaints of the access parent in a sole custody regime is that the custodial parent will announce at the last minute that a particular access visit conflicts with other plans made for the child, such as a family visit or a sport activity, and unilaterally decide that the access parent must accept another time “to visit” under the threat of not seeing the child at all. Another is that the access parent will be told that if the childis not returned exactly on time after an access visit, future access will be “cut off”. The threat of being “cut off” access is occasionally leveled at the parent who may be late in making support payments. In such instance, access parents often feel frustrated in their attempt to develop a relationship with their own child. They regard themselves as strangers, on the outside looking in. Resentment may be directed at the courts whom they may feel are the accomplice of the custodial parent, telling them when and where they can see their own child. Often an access parent will give up in frustration, taking on a more limited role in the life of their child, with the resulting loss to the child of the opportunity of developing a relationship with that parent. It is perfectly understandable that a parent, who may have played an important role in the rearing of his or her child, will feel frustrated if the custodial parent is now dictating the terms of access under the constant threat of a contempt application if a term is breached.

                              Comment

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