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  • #31
    How the child was conceived and the parents' responsibility to support their child are two completely different things that cannot be intertwined and placed into any sort of law.

    Believe me, I too have zero sympathy for women who use deceit to create a child that they personally want for reasons of their own. My husband is living, breathing proof of a young first-year university student, approached by an older woman (3 years older) one night at a bar, who took him back to her place for what seemed like a typical one-night-stand (drunk yet consenting)... only to have the condom break, her lie about being on the pill (when he asked whether she should look into getting the morning-after pill)... and nine months later, the money-grubbing began. Facilitating him access was none of her concern, ever, and still isn't. All that matters is how much money he can pay. The more, the better. Expenses for the most expensive things she could find, all "in the child's best interest." After all, he was working (part time, but still working) while she wasn't, so he was responsible for 100% of the expense! Heck, he even had to PAY to SEE his child during the first year. She wouldn't let him lay eyes on the baby unless he came bearing gifts (diapers, milk, clothing, whatever) on top of child support! And 7 years later, things aren't much better than they were in the beginning. And the worst part of it all, the court system has done nothing but turn a blind eye and even proclaimed all the extra payments to be "gifts" that cannot and will not be counted as overpayment or returned. I think THAT is what is sickening about the whole situation... fathers who, regardless of whether they wanted to be fathers or not, are trying to be responsible for their offspring, and instead are getting extorted by their babies' mothers and used as nothing more than a living, breathing ATM. It absolutely sickens me how much money my husband pays monthly for 1 child. He currently pays closer to the table amount for 2 children than for 1 child... on top of providing the child with a fully furnished room, toys, daycamps, activities, and every piece of clothing for every weather in our home. But to the courts, none of that matters. (Believe me, we've tried to make it matter.) Something should be done about THAT - not about who's responsible and in what circumstance.

    Comment


    • #32
      No rights

      What I see happening is that women have the "rights" with regard to reproduction, without the corresponding responsibilities. Ok, yes, she will have responsibilities, many, but not LEGISLATED ones. There is no judge standing over her telling her to give her child XXX amount of dollars per month for her child every year until they graduate university, and that she cannot quit working or she will go into arrears and owe even more.

      By contrast, the man has only responsibilities, but not rights, in regard to reproduction. The man may tell a women he doesn't want a child, she may lie to him about being on contraception, or it may just be an accident. But once she is pregnant, he has no rights, it is ALL her decision. And yet he is now held responsible for CS, daycare, summer camps, and university for up to age 26 in Canada.

      Yes, a child needs money to be raised, but should a man be cornered into this economic servitude, responsibility minus rights? The women, who has the right to keep the child, knowing the man involved didn't want a child, should be fully responsible (including financially) for her choice to keep the child.

      Comment


      • #33
        Oh good, now all the people who say the child has the right to be supported by both parents, once it comes into the world, no matter what the means (lies, love, deception, accidents etc.) will now support my "second" children petition that just wants kids from second unions (with CS paying parents) to be acknowledged as needing support from both their parents too. Here's the link - sign on.

        Canadian Child Support Guidelines are Unfair to "Second" Families Petition

        Comment


        • #34
          In an effort to be as open minded as possible, I read this entire thread.

          First off, this "midnight" guy is an angry, resentful man. That aside, he tried, (albiet improperly), to get some support for what he believes in. Each to their own!

          Unfortunately for him, the sex contracts and forced abortions aren't going to happen.

          When two consenting adults have sex, regardless of the methods of contraception used, they could conceive a child. It is that simple.

          I am actually pretty sure that they teach that in Grade 9 sex ed class.

          Both genders have an opportunity to enforce their civil liberites...... just at different times!!

          Men, have the right (before conception), to abstain from sexual intercourse...
          If a child is unwanted, a vasectomy is provided, courtesy of the taxpayor.

          Men also have the right to abstain from having a sexual relationship with a woman who is not their wife or significant partner. (They can CHOOSE to not have casual sex with strangers; therefore, protecting themselves from said "gold-diggers").

          Women, have the right (after conception), to decide whether or not to carry the pregnancy to term.

          So you see, there is no "extortion" here.... it is about choices!

          Midnight could have avoided this if he had exercised either of the above "rights".

          He CHOSE not to, so now he shall face the imposed consequences.

          It is really too bad for his child though, and for the countless other children out there, whose Fathers decided (too late), that they didn't want a child....

          Comment


          • #35
            What about when the man wants a child and the women goes and gets an abortion without his permission? Where are the man's rights then? (I know personally of two cases when this has happened to my male acquaintences. )

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by justsayno View Post
              What about when the man wants a child and the women goes and gets an abortion without his permission? Where are the man's rights then? (I know personally of two cases when this has happened to my male acquaintences. )
              That is a difficult situation as well....

              Men don't have any rights in that particular situation.

              One of my female aquaintences was married with 3 small children.....and they were surprised with a new pregnancy.

              The husband was happy and ready to add to the family and the wife was adament that she did not want to continue with the pregnancy. She was a stay at home mom and she felt she couldn't handle the added stress and financial burden....nor did she want to be pregnant for 9 months and cause further destruction to her body.

              She ended up aborting the pregnancy without her husbands knowledge or consent.

              Needless to say..... this destroyed their marriage and they are now divorced. It was a nasty, nasty divorce.

              The point to my story is that, even though the man wanted the child, it is the woman who has to carry the baby, and give birth to it.... and unless you have been pregnant, you'll NEVER understand what that does to your body...or how sick you can be...the pain is excrutiating and the damage is permanent.

              Neither the biological fathers nor the government should have the right to force a woman to bear a child.

              The same works for abortion. It is a surgical procedure, with many possible side effects....

              Some believe abortion is murder.

              Again, no one, not biological Father or the Government should ever be able to force a woman to murder her unborn child..... especially if the reason is because the man doesn't want to financially support said child.

              Money isn't everything....right??

              Comment


              • #37
                Money isn't everything, right? I think CP's would see if differently if they were told to hand over 50% of their take-home pay to the ex-husband (give him custody), and try to live a semi-normal life, while still providing a home for their children when they visit.

                THE GUIDELINE amounts are TOO HIGH, and it is NOT REALISTIC to expect that anyone can live on 50% of their income, and men payors lose hope and just go away. Can't say I blame them, especially if they had no CHOICE and didn't want the child.

                I have a challenge for CP's, try, just for one month, to:
                1)put aside your "guideline" amount of CS you would pay (If the child was with the father), based on your income
                2)put away the money you get in CCTB,
                3)put away Tax refunds (divide your yearly return by 12),
                4) put away and GST, and any other money "for the kids".
                5) Put aside the CS the NCP pays you.
                6) put aside any "extra-expenses" allocated (if not already doing)


                Now try to live a normal life. That is how the NCP lives every month for 18+ years.
                Get it yet?

                Comment


                • #38
                  I am only interested in hearing from people who are in the same situation...they understand exactly what it is....people who are not....DON"T GET IT...ignorance is bliss for them......and don't forget that lawyers and the governement, as well as the extortionist profit most from the present "law" ...the children usually end up as hookers, massage parlour attendants, strippers at the local bars....and who do you think patronizes these places....your husbands of course.....lol...while the other males who are in favour of allowing this extortion pull their goalie...good night Irene

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I agree 1000% with got2bkid...you are an intelligent human being....very well educated....and can think for yourself

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      To Representing Self

                      "Justice therefore dictates that if a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support. Or, put another way, autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice." --

                      Karen DeCrow, former NOW President ( National Organisation for Women, U.S.A.)

                      She is a very liberated and intelligent woman. You don't seem to be either.

                      MEN HAVE NO RIGHTS and nobody except the government, lawyers and the extortionists profit from these situations.....it does not reflect well on us as Canadians to have our elected representatives stick their proverbial noses up their butts and ignore the draconian nature of this law....child support should be tied into access....no access then no support....the slogan that "good parents pay" came from an obese woman who was non-orgasmic and had an axe to grind with all healthy red blooded males...also, the federal website that proclaims that child support payments have nothing to do with access is a further proclamation that our system is not only flawed but insane.....it encourages homicides and suicides or devious ways to use the law to NOT pay...what about the Conservative Native senator, a former chief and non tax paying Canadian resident, who also knocked up a woman and was paying $45 per month in child support....this from a guy who makes low six figures....come on now .....there is something very wrong here....and nobody seems to have the balls to do anything resembling common sense to end this insanity....Huxleys Brave New World is a solution for this.....since politicians are too busy lining their own pockets and doing nothing of any intrinsic value for anyone except themselves...

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by midnightvampyr View Post
                        [b][i]"....the slogan that "good parents pay" came from an obese woman who was non-orgasmic and had an axe to grind with all healthy red blooded males...
                        so now you resort to calling a person fat and commenting her ability to have an orgasm or not. First off bad form and second, how would you know she cannot have an orgasm?? That really doesn't help your argument.

                        The support system is flawed, I think that most of us can agree with that here. But here is a reality check for you. A guy goes out and starts having kids with a moves to b has a few more and then moves on etc. He knows what he is doing and he should support those kids. If he doesn't then who does? Duhh the taxpayers. People like me who made a CHOICE with my husband not to have kids. Why should my tax dollars go for the welfare, subsidized housing etc that some of this single moms may end up on because the father refuses to pay?? Why should I be punished?????
                        Last edited by standing on the sidelines; 11-05-2009, 07:51 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by midnightvampyr View Post
                          "Justice therefore dictates that if a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support. Or, put another way, autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice." --

                          Karen DeCrow, former NOW President ( National Organisation for Women, U.S.A.)

                          She is a very liberated and intelligent woman. You don't seem to be either.

                          MEN HAVE NO RIGHTS and nobody except the government, lawyers and the extortionists profit from these situations.....it does not reflect well on us as Canadians to have our elected representatives stick their proverbial noses up their butts and ignore the draconian nature of this law....child support should be tied into access....no access then no support....the slogan that "good parents pay" came from an obese woman who was non-orgasmic and had an axe to grind with all healthy red blooded males...also, the federal website that proclaims that child support payments have nothing to do with access is a further proclamation that our system is not only flawed but insane.....it encourages homicides and suicides or devious ways to use the law to NOT pay...what about the Conservative Native senator, a former chief and non tax paying Canadian resident, who also knocked up a woman and was paying $45 per month in child support....this from a guy who makes low six figures....come on now .....there is something very wrong here....and nobody seems to have the balls to do anything resembling common sense to end this insanity....Huxleys Brave New World is a solution for this.....since politicians are too busy lining their own pockets and doing nothing of any intrinsic value for anyone except themselves...
                          First off....... are you on drugs??? You're either incredibly high, or incredibly ignorant.

                          What part of keep your penis in your pants do you not understand? Did you happen to fail that Grade 9 sex ed course where they showed you how to put a condom on a bananna?

                          I don't care if your ex Brazilian Immigrant told you she was infertile.... YOU made the decision to ejaculate inside her vagina which led to insemination which led to a child.

                          A 50 cent rubber would have saved you 21 years of child support under these "draconian" and unfair laws....

                          But YOU were either too cheap, too drunk, or too stupid to exercise your "RIGHTS", and see what the end result would be from your carelessness.

                          You HAD the RIGHT to PROTECT YOURSELF... and YOU CHOSE NOT TO.... and now you want to blame society, politicians and women for your irresponsible actions.

                          "Child support should be tied into access"..... and why is that??? So that Deadbeat loosers like you can decide to abandon your children, whenever you feel like it....

                          ONLY because you are so selfish and don't want to pay money to feed, clothe and shelter them?

                          Your arguments are ludicrous and you desperately want to find other irrational idiots who will agree with you....

                          Thankfully, the majority of intelligent people in this country, myself included, value human life over money, and will never concede to your nonesense.

                          Your preposterous statements are however, very entertaining... please feel free to continue to voice your neanderthal opinions...... I could use a chuckle.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by representingself
                            What part of keep your penis in your pants do you not understand? Did you happen to fail that Grade 9 sex ed course where they showed you how to put a condom on a banana?
                            Oh that made me laugh! Thanks Rep!

                            Granted... biology and sociology are a little biased in this regard... men are biologically programmed to "spread their seed" and may not always be able to "keep it in their pants" (especially under the influence of alcohol)... and women have the final say when it comes to abortion/termination, adoption, or parenting.

                            Yes, it is unfair. I've heard it all before from my own husband who - even though he used protection (the condom broke) and the girl "swore" she was on the pill (which was a lie) - fathered a child on a drunken one night stand. Not his proudest moment, not something he wishes on even his worst enemy, but something that unfortunately does happen in today's day and age. (And to those of every age.)

                            But, knowing full well the consequences of such actions (responsible or not) does make you liable to help support the child you helped create... whether you intended to or not. Did my husband want to have a child born out of wedlock and to a girl he barely knows... of course not! But, alcohol/university/bets/etc. got the best of him - this was before him and I met, of course! ;-) - and what most young men that age call 'the worst possible senario' (i.e. one-night-stand, condom breaking, insemination, 9-months later a paternity test) for my husband became a reality. But even at 19, he knew full well that whether he liked it or not, he had a responsibility to this child. And he has always fulfilled that responsibility by not only paying child support, but by being a Father and regularly exercising his access and building a relationship with his child.

                            We all know that "accidents happen," as they say. It's how we deal with the consequences of our actions that tell what kind of man/woman we are. There are many things that have and will continue to happen in our lives that we may not be too pleased about, but we do the best we can given the cards we've been dealt.

                            If you're a parent - you have a responsibility to your child. It doesn't matter whether your child was planned or not. You created the innocent youngster... don't punish him or her for your poor choices or the poor choices of their other parent. The child did not choose to be born to you. You chose to act out the steps to make the child.

                            Nothing more. Nothing less.

                            You made your bed. Now you must lay in it.

                            Again, thanks for the chuckle, Rep! ;-)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by #1StepMom View Post
                              Oh that made me laugh! Thanks Rep!

                              Granted... biology and sociology are a little biased in this regard... men are biologically programmed to "spread their seed" and may not always be able to "keep it in their pants" (especially under the influence of alcohol)... and women have the final say when it comes to abortion/termination, adoption, or parenting.

                              Yes, it is unfair. I've heard it all before from my own husband who - even though he used protection (the condom broke) and the girl "swore" she was on the pill (which was a lie) - fathered a child on a drunken one night stand. Not his proudest moment, not something he wishes on even his worst enemy, but something that unfortunately does happen in today's day and age. (And to those of every age.)

                              But, knowing full well the consequences of such actions (responsible or not) does make you liable to help support the child you helped create... whether you intended to or not. Did my husband want to have a child born out of wedlock and to a girl he barely knows... of course not! But, alcohol/university/bets/etc. got the best of him - this was before him and I met, of course! ;-) - and what most young men that age call 'the worst possible senario' (i.e. one-night-stand, condom breaking, insemination, 9-months later a paternity test) for my husband became a reality. But even at 19, he knew full well that whether he liked it or not, he had a responsibility to this child. And he has always fulfilled that responsibility by not only paying child support, but by being a Father and regularly exercising his access and building a relationship with his child.

                              We all know that "accidents happen," as they say. It's how we deal with the consequences of our actions that tell what kind of man/woman we are. There are many things that have and will continue to happen in our lives that we may not be too pleased about, but we do the best we can given the cards we've been dealt.

                              If you're a parent - you have a responsibility to your child. It doesn't matter whether your child was planned or not. You created the innocent youngster... don't punish him or her for your poor choices or the poor choices of their other parent. The child did not choose to be born to you. You chose to act out the steps to make the child.

                              Nothing more. Nothing less.

                              You made your bed. Now you must lay in it.

                              Again, thanks for the chuckle, Rep! ;-)
                              at least you husband is a fine man. Even though he took precautions he still stepped up to the plate when he found out he was a dad.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by standing on the sidelines View Post
                                at least you husband is a fine man. Even though he took precautions he still stepped up to the plate when he found out he was a dad.
                                Yes, he is a good man. Thank you. Though it wasn't a very easy time for him when he found out he was the Father - there were 2 other candidates and seeing as he had only slept with the girl once, he had convinced himself that it could not possibly be his child. So when the paternity results came back, it was a huuuuge shock for him. For everyone. He took the news the worst. Depression, alcohol, drugs, and the list goes on. Only after several long and hard weeks of self reflection and guidance did he begin to snap out of his funk and begin looking at the positive aspects - he had a healthy baby boy who was 50% him; his flesh and blood. How can you not fall in love with your own child? It's a life changing event, whether you like it / planned it or not. :-)

                                Comment

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