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  • #31
    Does your husband ever tried to discuss these and other issues one-on-one with his ex?
    Mom refuses to talk - not in person, not on the phone, not in mediation (we did attempt this some time ago but it was not successful), not through the doctors or counselors.

    Failing the two of them trying to sort things out I don't think there is much you can do.
    I'd have to agree.

    I personally would do everything I could do to avoid the woman and maybe you have to think more along the lines of self-preservation mode.
    I have to say I would be very resentful if my husband expected me to deal with his ex on any matter if the two of us didn't get along.
    There is no expectation of my husband for mom or I other than for everyone to be respectful. Unfortunately, mom is not respectful to anyone in our household and continues to inject herself wherever and whenever she can. I do not have to deal with her and I do not deal with her save maybe once or twice a year on a trivial matter (maybe she will email me to include something in their school bag she forgot or whatever).

    It is difficult to avoid her when she continues to show up where we are with the children during dad's access. She doesn't watch from a distance respectfully she cuddles the children to an extent that is seen as odd by many others (the children's coaches have complained and actually asked her to remove herself as she is in the playing zone of their sporting activity).

    It has gotten to the point that we don't discuss our upcoming plans with any of our kids any more as it is so uncomfortable when mom shows up. It creates a hostile situation. My ex husband comes to his children's activities from time to time but he is respectful, does not interfere with the kid's activities and does not intrude on our time or plans (does not draw out good byes, does not bring the children meals as mom does during our time, does not say off the cuff rude remarks, does not swear or yell, etc.). It is really over the top. The children's psych has said that it creates anxiety for the children when mom shows up during our time and has said that it would be better if mom allowed dad to have unfettered time with the children. Moreover, the children are now being seen as being different by their peers at their sports activities as a twelve year old with his mother hanging off him and holding his hand in the playing zone is seen as different. They now shun him when mom shows up. Sad...
    Last edited by Serene; 02-07-2014, 08:48 AM.

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    • #32
      Yikes - that sounds like some seriously insecure behaviour. I hope she doesn't still "baby talk" with them!

      I don't think there is anything you can do. Perhaps some day your husband can get to a point where he can talk to her. If that doesn't happen I'm sure her kids will tell her not to embarrass them (if they haven't already).

      In the meantime I'd avoid her as much as possible. Let the dad take his kids to games. Not your problem.

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      • #33
        In the meantime I'd avoid her as much as possible. Let the dad take his kids to games. Not your problem.
        Actually not that simple. All of our children participate in one of the activities that my husband's children play in. And we are involved in those activities as the leadership of those activities.

        So one activity both my husband and I run the program (note it is not a parent and me activity, the leaders run the program for the children and we are the leaders). The activity we run is on our access day. All our children participate in this program, our oldest volunteers as a junior leader too. It upsets all the children when mom shows because she is hostile at best. Not to mention it impedes the programing as well. The only way to avoid her is to shut down the program for ALL the children that are in the activity.

        The second activity some of our other children participate in it as well. So the only way to avoid her would be to withdraw all the children.

        The third activity none of our other kids play in. Dad takes the child to that activity when the child wants to. For several months he hasn't wanted to. I suspect because it is uncomfortable for him when mom shows up. He may just have lost interest in it as well. It is hard to tell. His doctor will try and discuss this situation and see what is going on.

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        • #34
          You know, Serene, I'd be seriously thinking about getting underhanded with the bio-mom.

          She said she can't take the kids to the appointment, so the dad must take the child to an appointment? See if you can change the appointment to another time, but still on his access. Then if mom complains, he explains that she had told him she wouldn't attend, so he had not informed her of rescheduling.

          She attends and interferes with the kids' activities on his access time, and he has a hand in organizing those activities? Change the venue for a meeting, and don't inform her. Get another organizer to order her to watch from the side with the other parents, same as you would with any problem parent who impedes the programming.

          If she interferes with things that are going on at the father's access, including causing problems for other, unrelated children, I would say that ends his obligation to inform her about them.

          Document it for a few months, to back up the decision, and then stop keeping her in the loop.

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          • #35
            You know, Serene, I'd be seriously thinking about getting underhanded with the bio-mom.
            I can't do that as it is not moral. And I think it would fan the flames so to speak. The situation is difficult enough already...

            She said she can't take the kids to the appointment, so the dad must take the child to an appointment? See if you can change the appointment to another time, but still on his access. Then if mom complains, he explains that she had told him she wouldn't attend, so he had not informed her of rescheduling.
            Mom calls all the specialists quite regularly to get info on appointments etc. Mom also changes appointments on us sometimes. We don't take issue with it we just try and work around it. Nothing would be gained by protesting her difficult nature - she is willfully disruptive in most everything...

            She attends and interferes with the kids' activities on his access time, and he has a hand in organizing those activities? Change the venue for a meeting, and don't inform her. Get another organizer to order her to watch from the side with the other parents, same as you would with any problem parent who impedes the programming.
            The Regional Office is now involved. She called them and made inquiries. We were approached by a representative of the activity we are involved in. We made them aware of the situation as it poses risks for the other youth in our activity.

            If she interferes with things that are going on at the father's access, including causing problems for other, unrelated children, I would say that ends his obligation to inform her about them.
            We do not inform her of what we are doing or when. But if soccer is every Sunday afternoon it is not hard to figure out that we might very well be at soccer on Sunday afternoon! Do you see our problem? lol

            Document it for a few months, to back up the decision, and then stop keeping her in the loop.
            The situation feels hopeless...

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            • #36
              Originally posted by ByMyself View Post
              We have an existing final divorce order, obtained on consent, that states "parties are to communicate regularly regarding the children using Our Family Wizard". My ex insisted on us using it, and after the order was finalized, pushed me to set it up. I have emails indicating this clearly.
              I wouldn't worry about who pushed whom to use OFW over a traditional "communications log/book" that often goes missing, gets lost in transition or simply thrown in the garbage by one of the parents in 99% of the case.

              Furthermore, the children should NOT be carrying a book between both parents home that contains intimate details of the parental relationship. Suffice to say, children consistently over the age of 6 read these communications books. Contrary to popular belief communications books are a nightmare to manage.

              Originally posted by ByMyself View Post
              I set it up, and we used it for about 6 months almost exclusively. Texts were only used occasionally, generally for last minute "running a few minutes late" kind of situations, as allowed for in the order.
              You can do this with OFW as well. They have an iPhone app and Android app. If you have SMS notifications on and a data plan you can easily communicate through OFW almost as fast as you would over SMS. Furthermore, it is logged and tracked by a independent and accountable third party. SMS is not... Nor is email.

              Originally posted by ByMyself View Post
              All of a sudden, my ex started having "internet problems", and pushed me for text messaging and phone calls only. I have tried to refuse, and stick to Family Wizard. In a couple of important matters, I have used regular email, because I can see they haven't bothered to log into Family Wizard for months.
              This is where you follow the court order and if you get an email you copy the email, paste it into OFW and respond via OFW only to the email. You can send a simple "automated looking email" that reads:

              Dear Person X:

              In accordance with para. XX of the order made on consent before the Honourable Justice Name on Day, Month, Year the response to this communications has been provided to you via Our Family Wizard.


              Yours very truly,
              Your Name
              cc. Other Party's Lawyer

              Originally posted by ByMyself View Post
              Now, they outright refuse to use email or Family Wizard. They are pushing me for using a communication book, and phone calls.
              This is because the highly conflcted don't like to be monitored or tracked. See these articles about OFW and how to manage these situations better:

              Our Family Wizard: An Excellent Tool for Co-Parenting with a High-Conflict Person, Part 1 l Dr Tara J. Palmatier | Shrink4Men

              OurFamily Wizard, Part 2: Common Excuses Made by High-Conflict Parents Not to Use OFW and Effective Counter-Arguments l Dr Tara J. Palmatier | Shrink4Men

              Originally posted by ByMyself View Post
              They sent a book, which came in the backpack of our D6, who is an avid reader with good comprehension. The comments in the book, in my opinion, would not have been good for our daughter to read. So I removed the book, and let my ex know why, and that I do not consent to the book, and that we need to use Family Wizard, as per our order.
              Similar to my comment above about the "communication book". You should not be using your child, especially in 2014, as a communication's mule to carry a book in their backpack.

              Originally posted by ByMyself View Post
              They are accusing me of being high conflict, because I will not consent to the change.
              Typical but, what do you care. You have a court order and they have to bring forward a motion on a MATERIAL CHANGE IN CIRCUMSTANCE and establish on a prima facia basis why their option is better to even be heard. They will surely fail and you will get costs.

              Suffice to say, you should only communicate over OFW and as stated in the court order. That way when they come crying to court they will be in contempt of the order anyways...

              Originally posted by ByMyself View Post
              I know that they have internet at home, and on their cell phone. They have posted 50+ times on facebook groups (including Canada Court Watch), in this period when they "have no internet", but never once during this time have they used Family Wizard or replied to an email.
              By the way, depending on what they wrote on CCC that is WONDERFUL evidence to have in your back pocket. Justices in family law are VERY FAMILIAR with this "organization" and any time they are mentioned in a court room it is usually by the party that will be unsuccessful. I am sorry you are having to deal with someone whom is dependent on CCC an organization that is not positively recognized in case law.

              Originally posted by ByMyself View Post
              They have recently declared that they will not share information (such as health card numbers, sin numbers) with me unless I consent to the change.
              You have a court order to the effect then go to Service Ontario and get the information yourself as a full joint custodial parent. In the event they are not supposed to be in possession of the documents, have them issue new ones and have them file a copy of your court order to that effect. The folks at Service Ontario regularly have to do this and are very familiar with the process.

              Originally posted by ByMyself View Post
              Am I out of line, and being high conflict, to keep insisting on Family Wizard?
              No.

              Originally posted by ByMyself View Post
              Verbal communication does not work - they have accused me several times of saying things that I didn't, and every time I try to be firm with them on the phone, they accuse me of being threatening. Their email communications are out of control - why would I expect anything else in the communication book? Their first attempts at it, have shown they don't realize the potential harm to the children in what is being communicated.
              This is how the deulded mind of a highly conflicted person works. The live on "hearsay" evidence. But, don't realize that justices don't rely upon hearsay (he-said-she-said) and prefer these days emails and other tangible evidence over projections of what was said.

              So, you shouldn't worry.

              Originally posted by ByMyself View Post
              Some kind of communication needs to be in place, for matters regarding the children. Should I, in the best interests of the kids, be backing down and trying the communication book, or should I stay firm with Family Wizard?
              Stay firm with the order unless a court orders otherwise. In fact, you are probably communicating TOO OFTEN with the other parent. Barring a major medical condition (long term disability) with the child my recommended frequency of communication with the other parent for a 6 year old child is at most once a week. If the child isn't vomiting or bleeding, violently attacking other children in her class room and is fine... There really isn't anything to communicate.

              Originally posted by ByMyself View Post
              I suppose I will have no choice other than to file a motion to enforce using Family Wizard. I have offered mediation, but that has been refused by the ex as well.
              Why bother? Just do what I said above. Don't file a motion for this. That is silly.

              Originally posted by ByMyself View Post
              Any thoughts? And thoughts about how to get the use of Family Wizard enforced?
              1. Don't file a motion.
              2. Read the articles I provided.
              3. Respond politely that the response to the question is provided on OFW.

              OFW is scary to a high-conflict person because it:

              a. Tracks their IP address.
              b. Provides read receipts.
              c. Tracks logons.
              d. Tracks EVERY BUTTON CLICK.

              You can actually present some very compelling evidence simply relying upon the logs from OFW. That is why high-conflict people hate it.

              Good Luck!
              Tayken

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Serene View Post
                We do not inform her of what we are doing or when. But if soccer is every Sunday afternoon it is not hard to figure out that we might very well be at soccer on Sunday afternoon! Do you see our problem? lol
                Oh yes, I saw the problem the first time you described it. But if soccer is moved to a different field one week, and she doesn't find out...

                What happens if you double book the kids? One child is at swimming with dad and the other is at karate with you? Which one does bio-mom attend?

                That's all I meant by underhanded. It's not immoral to try to gently work around someone who is being so extraordinarily difficult. How is it immoral to improve the situation for the children?

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                • #38
                  Oh yes, I saw the problem the first time you described it. But if soccer is moved to a different field one week, and she doesn't find out...
                  We aren't able to move the program we run ourselves. Sometimes it does take place elsewhere in advance to participate in a specific activity. That is not our doing and we do not communicate that to mom as it is dad's access time. Mom has asked the head office for all of this information, details, etc.

                  What happens if you double book the kids? One child is at swimming with dad and the other is at karate with you? Which one does bio-mom attend?
                  She attends both! In fact we are double booked already and always have been for one night a week. She enrolled one child in an activity when we are leading the activity we are already involved in. Now you can say we don't have to take the child to the activity that she enrolled the child in dad's time but we really do want to be fair to the children. However, recently the child has expressed interest to forgo the activity she planned for the child and join our activity where we are the leaders instead.

                  That's all I meant by underhanded. It's not immoral to try to gently work around someone who is being so extraordinarily difficult. How is it immoral to improve the situation for the children?
                  So this is where we are at. We ARE trying to improve the situation not only for THEIR children but remember our other children are present as well and are uncomfortable with bio-mom being there. There are tangible reasons for this as well - bio-mom has even taken pictures of MY children and admitted to this in Request to Admit (this is just one example). MY children have also said to CAS that they are uncomfortable with her around for a multitude of reasons. And then there are all the other children in the activities that are affected by this. It poisons the environment whether something obviously bad happens or not. I can tell you that it affects my leadership whereas I am anxious, stressed and not as focused as I should be... meaning I have much better leadership when mom doesn't inject herself in the middle of our family time.

                  It may be that we just quit all the above activities, which would be unfortunate. But we are worried it will back fire as it is akin to taking away from the children what they rightfully want to do and enjoy. And I don't want to be in a position where something ugly happens in front of any child. Its a ticking time bomb as I see it. We really are trying to find a way to work around this. I really think it is a hopeless situation.

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                  • #39
                    Apparently I'm not explaining myself very well today.

                    Originally posted by Serene View Post
                    Originally posted by Rioe View Post
                    What happens if you double book the kids? One child is at swimming with dad and the other is at karate with you? Which one does bio-mom attend?
                    She attends both! In fact we are double booked already and always have been for one night a week. She enrolled one child in an activity when we are leading the activity we are already involved in. Now you can say we don't have to take the child to the activity that she enrolled the child in dad's time but we really do want to be fair to the children. However, recently the child has expressed interest to forgo the activity she planned for the child and join our activity where we are the leaders instead.
                    I meant, what if one kid's swimming was simultaneous with the other kid's karate. All arranged by dad on the dad's time, and you can take one kid and the dad takes the other, however, the mom cannot possibly be in both places at once. Have you tried this? What did she do?

                    Although I guess I'm coming at it the wrong way. The problem isn't precisely her attendance, it's her behaviour while she's attending. I'm stuck thinking of ways to get around the attendance, because the behaviour is so hard to address.

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                    • #40
                      This might have been tried already, and I really don't know much about it, but what about a parenting coordinator of some sort? Surely there must be some type of professional out there who would be only too happy to take their money and act as a go-between for these people?

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                      • #41
                        @Arabian - A parenting coordinator needs to be court ordered or on consent of the parties. We did request to use one and mom refused. Well, to be fair, she said nothing about it despite many, many request so it is as good as refusing as she did not indicate she would agree to use one.

                        I am seriously considering pursuing a peace bond or asking dad to return to court for assistance. Our issue is it is affecting the other children in our home (and of course ourselves). We are unable to do things as a family with the peace and harmony that we should be because mom is injecting herself into our family time.

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                        • #42
                          Peace bond would likely be applicable to both you and the mother which would make sense.

                          Certainly your own children should not have to feel threatened by this woman. You have stated that you feel this situation, if not addressed, is likely to escalate.

                          You can apply for a peace bond at your local courthouse.

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                          • #43
                            Curious, Serene, if an all-party meeting, with a family therapist involved, has ever been attempted?

                            It has been suggested in my situation, and I think it can be helpful to bring out many of these issues in an open, safe, face to face environment.

                            The hopeful side of me has put forth that option to my ex, with no response. CAS suggested it to them as well, independently of me, but my ex refused, in part due to their own anxiety around that scenario.

                            Just curious if you, or anyone else, has tried this - and if it has helped at all, in improving communications between both families.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Curious, Serene, if an all-party meeting, with a family therapist involved, has ever been attempted?
                              Yes it has been requested and we even offered to pay for the costs. In fact, during mediation mom asked "why would did you put in your offers to settle that you would pay for all the counselling for everyone?". And our reply was "Because it is THAT important to us that we try to work through this".

                              It has been suggested in my situation, and I think it can be helpful to bring out many of these issues in an open, safe, face to face environment.
                              We also think it would be helpful. At the very least, we'd like to try. Mom isn't on same page obviously.

                              The hopeful side of me has put forth that option to my ex, with no response. CAS suggested it to them as well, independently of me, but my ex refused, in part due to their own anxiety around that scenario.
                              I have no idea why mom wouldn't try. It wouldn't hurt to try in my opinion. Although for any type of counseling to work every party has to be authentic, honest and be willing to make an effort to do/try/facilitate what the counselor suggest. I get the feeling sometimes that mom doesn't want to make things better, that she is willfully destructive meaning that her efforts are to hurt or punish us. I know this could be construed that we are the angry or bitter ones but I assure you we are not. I say this because there are deliberate attempts to hurt us, through words, through actions, through the children. The doctor we are using agrees with us so this is not just our opinion. The doctor has spoken to mom on a few occasions. Mom's availability is very low when he requests to see her.

                              Comment

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