valuing possesions at marriage, at seperation and items inherited during the marriage

[ddol1]

Am I right in how possessions are valued in that on the date of seperation items are garge sale 25 to 30% of new. But more important, when we first get married items are valued in what it would cost to replace

Date of seperation
Value of goods on date of valuation is garage sale value typically 25 to 30% of its cost new. Perhaps if just purchased estimate can increase to say 60%(if we can find a current listing for sale - this would establish value too)
Cars and boats are at reasonable wholesale (I got mazda to value mine)

date of marriage
Value of goods when first married - items are valued for what they were purchased for assuming at least in my case the majority of what I owned was purchased within the last year. (So my 3 month old $1500 stereo on the date of marriage is valued at $1500 what I just bought it for. Is this right or wrong?
Cars are what it would cost to buy it that day on the open market.

Value of items Inherited
this one is harder for me to grasp - is this true? I was given my mom's car in 2003 with 27,000 kms (Valued 7K) and I kept the car and used it to the date of seperation (value $800 now) so the value of the inheritance is what it is worth on the date of seperation..... not when received? Money is invested so it is worth whatever you managed to increase your investment to or if a bad investment that lost - then it would be less!!)
(I do understand that if you spend money and buy a vacation - it is gone)

[dinkyface]

For all items it is the replacement value. So for the car, look for comparables (same km/year/condition/trim) on kijiji/craigslist and use that (but add 13% HST to the asking price).

I'm not sure if the fact that the car was inherited makes any difference, even if you can show it used by you exclusively.

[Epona]

Date of separation (Valuation date)= how much items are worth in the monetary sense on the date of separation. Or could average out the difference between selling and buying.
Date of Marriage--what each party (owned when married) brought into the marriage. If you didn't have the three month old stereo when you were married, you don't include it now.

Net Family Worth = Assets - Liabilities - Excluded Property
Inherited items are, I believe, excluded from net family property though I believe they still appear on the excluded property list
Family Law Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. F.3
"Excluded property
(2) The value of the following property that a spouse owns on the valuation date does not form part of the spouse’s net family property:
1. Property, other than a matrimonial home, that was acquired by gift or inheritance from a third person after the date of the marriage.
2. Income from property referred to in paragraph 1, if the donor or testator has expressly stated that it is to be excluded from the spouse’s net family property.
3. Damages or a right to damages for personal injuries, nervous shock, mental distress or loss of guidance, care and companionship, or the part of a settlement that represents those damages.
4. Proceeds or a right to proceeds of a policy of life insurance, as defined under the Insurance Act, that are payable on the death of the life insured.
5. Property, other than a matrimonial home, into which property referred to in paragraphs 1 to 4 can be traced.
6. Property that the spouses have agreed by a domestic contract is not to be included in the spouse’s net family property.
7. Unadjusted pensionable earnings under the Canada Pension Plan. R.S.O. 1990, c. F.3, s. 4 (2); 2004, c. 31, Sched. 38, s. 2 (1); 2009, c. 11, s. 22 (5)."
Not sure if I really answered your question though...

[ddol1]

Epona - thank you - you may not get a kick out of this, but i was reading another post you made today and i thought geez you really made a great effort - if only..... and here you are!!!! Only problem is today, this week continues to be out of this world hurt day and the words are hard to understand which frustrates me to no end:
the act wording
Sometimes I read that over and over and it just doesn't fully click - only due to my grey area that is my circumstance. Even my lawyer is overwhelmed with the accident disability settlement issues but at least he is trying..... if all our issues were text book then all this would be a breeze! #5 is my nemisis!
items owned at marriage
i guess it remains unclear if that three month old stereo, owned at marriage is valued at what it was purchased for or at some level of garage sale pricing which will only be a small percentage.
Excluded
So maybe you did - excluded property is what is was worth on the date of seperation regardless of what it may have been worth when first recieved. If you wore it out and had to dispose of it.... it was as if it was never inherited. as what the lawyer said, (does not mean i think that is right but i understand!)

cash can be invested and grow - yea for most of that until the discovery that she took it and it is gone (but at least there is a paper trail and the paper trail was produced by a bank. Something that allowed the lawyer to add it to the excluded section.
date of seperation
you are the first to imply that value could be not just straight garage sale but possibly an average between this and if I went to go and buy an equivalent item.
today at the lawyer and the entries of the excluded
admit it was a whirlwind get this done today (he will only return early next month) and I was slightly, ok alot, distressed to look at the paperwork and the majority of what I worked so hard at trying to get that bank style paper trail proof was not included and his assisstant would not include it now unless it did. I think that was wise of her. I think it was my fault for having a mental breakdown and I was not able to process anything anymore so he closed the session up and did the best he could. We did not go over the excluded items and it did not dawn on me until hours later. She did add two more numbers to the excluded total based on the bank issue. She said we have to have access to whatever we claim today to claim it or at least have a strong third party (a bank for eg. to show it in statements) and some of the claims are going to be hard).

I aways knew it was going to be hard, I knew not all of it would be provable or at least I couldn't gather enough usable data to support my claim. Some of the points are smack in your forehead obvious - I will win those - anything more is a bonus in my mind.

[Rioe]

Honestly, I think you should avoid all this hassle. It sounds like it is stressing you out way more than you need. What size place are you looking at getting after this? A little one-bedroom type place, or something bigger for when the kids stay over? Then, take the belongings that are unquestionably yours, and what you need to furnish your place, and leave all the rest for her. Or is the idea to take very little and squeeze as much compensation out of it as possible?

Alternately, maybe you should inflate all the prices; basically cost it out for what it would be to furnish your planned place at brand new store prices. Then "let" her negotiate you down to something more reasonable, like having half the stuff from the house. She'll feel like she's won something over you, and you'll have enough to start over, without all the hassle of shopping.

[ddol1]

Rioe - good points. Honest I have not planned anything as deeply as this but it sounds like a very, very good idea for me to get through this - why i did not come up with this?????. I can only say I have remained "idealistic" the honest numbers and the truth.

you'll have enough to start over, without all the hassle of shopping

That's me!!!!!!!!

take the belongings that are unquestionably yours, and what you need to furnish your place, and leave all the rest for her.

always been the problem - I have no unquestionably mine possessions in her mind and the end she felt generous in allowing me to have that 10+ year old chipped set of dishes we bought for $6 for a 4 place setting. Otherwise she had claimed nearly every other item to move on. If it is broken or we tried to give it away but nobody picked it up last garage sale, those are my three things!!!

She sincerely has her mind in she justifiably owns it all, the fact it was I who made 95% of the effort or got super breaks because of my medical issues well thay are all her efforts and the breaks? That is because she "just insert a story". This is now a vent but it is just stuff and I am going for the start over full price one stop shop since the prospect of "doing it all over again" I just do not have the energy. Doing it all over, all at once makes me feel ill just thinking of it - she knows this and it is part of her strategy if she actually has one after just ruining me financially and trying to destroy the relationship I have with the kids.

[Tayken]

Am I right in how possessions are valued in that on the date of seperation items are garge sale 25 to 30% of new. But more important, when we first get married items are valued in what it would cost to replace

Date of seperation
Value of goods on date of valuation is garage sale value typically 25 to 30% of its cost new. Perhaps if just purchased estimate can increase to say 60%(if we can find a current listing for sale - this would establish value too)
Cars and boats are at reasonable wholesale (I got mazda to value mine)

date of marriage
Value of goods when first married - items are valued for what they were purchased for assuming at least in my case the majority of what I owned was purchased within the last year. (So my 3 month old $1500 stereo on the date of marriage is valued at $1500 what I just bought it for. Is this right or wrong?
Cars are what it would cost to buy it that day on the open market.

Value of items Inherited
this one is harder for me to grasp - is this true? I was given my mom's car in 2003 with 27,000 kms (Valued 7K) and I kept the car and used it to the date of seperation (value $800 now) so the value of the inheritance is what it is worth on the date of seperation..... not when received? Money is invested so it is worth whatever you managed to increase your investment to or if a bad investment that lost - then it would be less!!)
(I do understand that if you spend money and buy a vacation - it is gone)

Always remember when doing equalization: Penny wise, pound foolish.

[ddol1]

Thank you Tayken - I understand it to be no lawyer arguing and to do so is to put reasonable numbers. (I define reasonable as if it goes either way with no changes - either one of us should be content. If she decides to finally split then the number is cancelled out 50/50) I suppose this is what i am trying to do - do something that is fair and she will agree to without a bunch of fighting. Just like I kept the car so I am taking on the value, which is why I made the effort to go to the owner of the dealership and get the no arguement number. I am on overload and geez there is so much stuff, and I have a chunk of tools, and my son has a chunk as well.

what makes it hard is not talking to her and conflicting instructions - my first guesses were horrible IMHO! i just did it like Rioe suggested not worring about the smaller stuff and I was left with a good feeling about the numbers today where Wed was the opposite..

[belikebuddha]

Valuing property is triggering nervous breakdown!

Hi, I am totally new here. I can't even figure out how to post a new post so I'm replying to this one, the closest to the issues I'm freaking out about right now. Went to the counter to file today and had everything ready, I mean everything EXCEPT the Form 13.1 (had been told it could wait). So now I'm totally overwhelmed with valuing property, how do I make sure I get everything listed let alone come up with a value (actually three values! sort of...) EEEEKKK! *sigh* I thought I was going to be a step forward when I left the house today and now I am in limbo. Don't want to be charged hundreds more for lawyer-advice on this part so if anyone can offer any help, please do! Sorry to the original poster for butting in on your post. I'm sure someone will tell me how to do it properly. I have a million questions. e.g. Where do you draw the line with valuing property, e.g. anything under $100. ? argh...

[inseperationhell]

My lawyer gave me wise advice which I followed after the overwhelming feeling of looking at the property division.... 2 choices...put everything down and nickle and dime or keep the calculations to the big stuff (i.e. worth >2000). The rest...stated "to be divided equally", and came up a list of what I wanted and what he could have...no cash value...
It worked fine - the big stuff, I had financially paperwork, receipts and valuations to back up my numbers. The rest - we worked it out to keep the lawyers fees down in one night of emails back and forth negotiating...

[ddol1]

Thinking pound foolish - already told the lawyer - he is not getting involved, not at $300 an hour. the lawyers can pass the lists back and forth.

Ok here is where I am at - she put a list together and passed it through the lawyers..... mine won't give me the list! That bad I guess? but as you put it A."I came up with a list of what I wanted and what he could have"
B. "In some form of fair can the other party pick a few things they wanted at not all one sided?"

So as I learned the basic is items that are personal to us, 9999987% used by a person would be a good indicator of personal to a person - no? Personal to them items then really have no value as it just goes to the "owner"?? - Say Tools to him. jewelery to her??

For humour - no vent! I really do not think she moved off her last offer??? (I think this is why he won't bother passing it over - not worth my distraction) Hmm where am I at? Her offer - entire newly replaced kitchen and everything in it replaced in less than the last six minths........ value, $xxx, goes to the ex, and she is letting me have the 11 year old set of chipped dishes (yup I bought them for a whopping $5/set of 4!!! Yup value today is....$1.25??

the vent is over!! not easy when it is not reasonable - what I wanted was no values - just divide stuff fair so we both can set up a place to live - dreaming?

[belikebuddha]

thank you so much, that really helps!

[ddol1]

if you want to make a post go to the main page, so look up at the top of this page and click on the words they are in blue:
Main Cateogory

there you will find the main groups of topic types.\, click the one you want to post in and you will see all the recent posts. Look just above the posts left hand side you will seee an orange background with the words:
New Topic

Click that and you have your new thread!! give it a title, type your questions and enjoy the site - welcome.