Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Paying Spousal Support

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Yes me again, spousal support was a mind blower for me as well, just couldn't believe one person would have to pay another simply because we were together. Regardless in my case I paid spousal for a period of time but negotiated a settlement by making an offer over and above included in the equalization. The advantage for the person asking for spousal is it not taxable since it is part of equalization rather than spousal. perhaps you could think of something along those lines, if you make a lump sum under any other name than spousal it makes it more attractive for him since it's not taxable to him. Of course you don't get the tax deduction either though. It may be something to think about.

    Comment


    • #17
      Thanks, Today.

      The hopelessness of it all just makes me want to quit my job, move away and never be heard from again.

      I still do not get how his treatment of me and our kids FOR YEARS is not abusive and that in the end he gets a monetary AWARD for being a jerk.

      Yes, I completely agree that spousal support should be awarded to a parent who has stayed home and raised the children, but he has not done that. My earning more than him for 4 years out of 23 is disgusting as well...I do believe that these persons who are claiming spousal support when they do not need it, i.e. they have jobs, are worse then the people out there claiming they are injured when they really aren't and collecting money for these fake injuries-- it just makes people like myself wonder why on earth did I work my ass off to get ahead, pay tons of taxes to this country and are now being screwed over? I might as well have stayed at a poverty level position and taken what I could have from the system.

      My whole problem with this spousal support b.s is HE IS NOT NEEDY!! And to top it all off, he has a "mommy" who is willing to pay his way through life, so why should he do anything for himself?

      Sorry, but this just makes me sick. Somewhere, sometime, some judge in this country has to realize that it is just not right...I mean, if I wanted to continue to pay his way through life, I would never have asked him for a divorce, and I would be nearly $40,000 richer right now (I would have his pay and the 5 grand I have wasted in lawyers fees).

      I joined this forum because I thought somewhere out there I could find someone who could offer hope and suggestions, now I hate to say it, but I wish I never did sign up. Feeling hopeless, frustrated, depressed and like my cause is a useless waste of time.

      Customgal

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by customgal

        I joined this forum because I thought somewhere out there I could find someone who could offer hope and suggestions, now I hate to say it, but I wish I never did sign up. Feeling hopeless, frustrated, depressed and like my cause is a useless waste of time.

        Customgal
        Sorry that you feel that way customgal! I thought that what people were saying was quite accurate and realistic.

        You're kind of in the reverse of a situation I see regularly which is a husband being required to pay spousal support for a wife who "does nothing but sit around watching TV and eating bon bons all day." The husband will tell me that ever since the children went to school full time he's been encouraging his wife to work, but she refuses to do so. She's a poor role model for the children with no work ethic. Etc. Etc.

        I'd also point out that it sounds like you've had 2 legal opinions that you'll be liable for spousal support. One lawyer can be wrong, but if 2 lawyers have given you that opinion, I'd take it seriously.

        I'd just add a few things about your situation:

        1. The fact that his mother can support him is completely irrelevant in the eyes of the law. It's you who has the primary support obligation.

        2. I don't really see any discussion about child support, which is going to influence significantly the amount of spousal support awarded, particularly if one of your children is at university away from home, and the other one soon will be. If you're paying for one or two children to go to university out of town, there may not be much money left over for you to pay spousal support. If the children's primary residence is with you, perhaps you can work out some deal where he does not pay any child support or contribute to their university costs, and in exchange you do not pay any spousal support.

        3. One important question I'm not sure what the answer is - is whether your ex *could* earn more than he's currently earning. That would have an effect on the amount of spousal support you may pay.

        4. As for tactics, what some lawyers might do is to make life as difficult as possible for your ex to obtain spousal support. The reality is that you can't just waltz into court and get spousal support. Often by making it a long and difficult road, a person may give up and settle for less than he's entitled to. The flip side of this is that it's expensive and if your ex does see things through to the end, you may need to pay some of his legal fees and generally court-awarded spousal support is higher than the amount of negotiated spousal support. I want to make clear that I *DON'T* recommend this and this is *NOT* how I practice. However, you wanted to know all your options and I've seen this tactic used effectively many times to reduce spousal support.
        Ottawa Divorce

        Comment


        • #19
          Hi Jeff,

          Thank you for your input. I seem to have these days where the stress level practically kills me as well as the worry over the situation. I am relatively calm today!

          As for him being able to earn more money, of course he can!! He earned more than I did for 19 years of the (23 year) relationship! My lawyer thinks that is very relevant. I decided enough was enough, I was tired of having no career and no money for our children, so I went back to college fulltime, paid my own student loan, took care of my infant son at the time...and waited. I worked low-paying jobs, having great difficulty at achieving my desired position to which I went to college for.

          Finally, things happened for me, in 2001 (nearly 15 years later!) and after years of more night school classes, I was hired in my current position. At first, I was only part-time, and became full-time early in 2002. I would practically kill myself and work all the overtime I could, and for the first time in our and my life, we were not hurting for money.

          My ex totally took advantage of this, knowing I would pay for all the bills. I constantly encouraged him to go back to school to upgrade himself as he refused to apply for better paying jobs, figuring if I was making a good dollar, he would not have to. I noticed a change come over him, as did family members and friends. It was like his ego took a nosedive and he commented to several people that I didn't need him anymore.

          Still, I knew things were not right between us, but I thought that after so many years I would do my damndest to make things work. He just was not willing. We are so opposite in so many ways and he only ever sees things his way. He hated everything I loved to do, and I despised him wasting his life and money sitting in a bingo hall, smoking, and also purchasing marijuana and drinking to excess. I couldn't help but feel he was using me. We practically stopped having sex.

          Every time I would try to discuss his addictions, he would tell me he has the right to have a "hobby." He had, and still has, a knack for making me feel guilty about things, and like I am a bad person, whenever we would disagree about something. I went years thinking I was a terrible person, wife, mother, I was unnattractive and lucky to have him (because he made me feel no other man would want me). The emotional abuse was overwhelming. Because of it, I suffered eating disorders, gaining and losing weight, stress, depression, even had thoughts of suicide for awhile.

          But I just wanted to try and make it work. I even took him away on two very expensive vacations, to which he did nothing but get drunk and embarrass me. I knew that I couldn't continue to live with him, he just would not do anything for me or our kids. There were a few times he would ask me for money for bingo and cigarettes, and when I refused, he would go into a rage, leave and when he returned would completely ignore me. How can anyone stay married under these circumstances?

          So many times, my close friends that I would confide in, would tell me I was either crazy or a saint to put up with someone like that. In 1999, he actually asked me for a divorce, but afraid for how I was going to support myself and my kids (I was earning around $20,000 a year, he would have been earning around $25,000.) I decided to bite the bullet and stick it out for the sake of my children. I figured that a bad marriage was better than no marriage, and I really did feel he would be a complete, vindictive jerk to have to deal with in a divorce, and back then I just didn't have the strength, finances or courage to go through that. (How right I would find out I was).

          I have a question for you, Jeff...is his behaviour not considered abusive in any way, shape or form? His neglect towards the children is disgusting. For years, he would smoke in the house in front of our children, even when our daughter was diagnosed with asthma. I begged him to go outside, but he refused, commenting that he grew up in a smoke-filled house and it never bothered him, and that they should get used to it.

          I have helped my son as best I can with money for college, he does not live there, but lives with his girlfriend (they are within driving range). It is just that I have to watch my money right now because his father is forcing me to pay legal fees (so far over $5000.00).

          My friend, an RN, has written a very good affidavit regarding his behaviour and addictions. She has also informed me that she spoke to 2 lawyers regarding my paying spousal support and told me both informed her I would not have to pay. Two other lawyers I have seen told me no, but one changed his mind, telling me it likely would depend "on the judge's mood." It was only one lawyer that sounded quite certain I "had an obligation to pay him."

          Certainly, if he had been a "human being" throughout our relationship, I do have a conscience, and since I am totally hating being at lawyers' mercy and paying high legal fees, I would have settled with him by now, I am a fair and reasonable person. But I just can't willingly pay someone who has behaved like that, someone who can support himself on $35,000 a year, and someone who could have gone to school, or applied for better jobs, but chose instead to neglect his family, gamble his money away, and reap the benefits of a wife who cared enough to get off the couch and re-educate herself.

          Now, come again on my "obligations" to him....

          Customgal

          Comment


          • #20
            I hear your frustration and I totally agree with you that this situation is unfair, but fact of the matter is The Divorce Act provides that a spouse’s “conduct in relation to the marriage” is irrelevant in determining entitlement to spousal support. Seems to me that the courts actually rewards this type of behaviour.

            Ontario’s matrimonial laws are hardly a shining example of rationality, impartiality or justice. Now that the Premier has revamp the existing Arbitrations Act by outlawing religious tribunals, he should consider taking a broom to the rest of the sorry mess. Until then you may find yourself having to pay your ex .

            Comment


            • #21
              You say he * could* earn more money? Has he ever earned more money in the marriage- I'm not talking about more than you - I mean -has he ever earned more money then he is now? If not I doubt the courts would impute income to him or say he could earn more.

              Because as Grace says -conduct doesn't have any relevence(he smokes, drinks , is a basic jerk) to the support you will have to pay. You need to separate that emotional aspect of that and look at this objectively within the framework of the law. Hard to do but in the long run it will be better for you financially and emotionally.

              Your kids are old enough that the abuse issue is moot. You are not talking custody but rather money and as it has been mentioned behaviour isn't relevent.

              I think because you didn't get the answers you wanted to hear - that is no need to knock the board- I for one am very appreciative of Jeff and this board. It has really been a great resource for me with my divorce. Thanks Jeff

              Just my humble opinion .... take it or leave it .

              Comment


              • #22
                Well, maybe I am completely stupid, but in my world if you have no problem affording $400.00 per month for bingo, $200.00 per month for cigarettes, not to mention a couple hundred more for the casino, another $200.00 a month for booze and whatever the going price for marijuana to supply yourself and friends, then I fail to see how he can not afford to live on his own paycheck. And I also fail to see how another human being can be responsible for paying for those addictions.

                I did not mean to knock this forum -- I only was hoping it could give me some useful and hopeful tips to see how others were making out on the subject of spousal support and it is very frustrating to say the least, that people are seemingly being forced to pay for the upkeep of an adult once that relationship ends. I have read and understand the spousal support guidelines a whole lot differently...but what I am of the understanding here, from your responses, is that nothing else matters except for the fact I earn more then he does. But in my opinion, and that of my lawyer's, that is not a done deal for entitlement to spousal support.

                As Jeff mentioned before, you just don't walk into a court room and get it. So, tell me, how can a judge or court feel sorry for my ex in this case and award him support? Isn't each case judged on its own merits? Do the guidelines not specifically say "a mere disparity of income between the parties does not guarantee entitlement to spousal support?" (or something like that).

                If this is so, then are you people suggesting that everyone who earns less then their spouse and demands spousal support can get it, no questions asked? And we call this a law?

                What about his obligations to his child(ren)? Does he not have any obligations to me, simply because I have been the higher income earner for 4 years out of this 23 year marriage? Does the fact he is involved in illegal activities (drug use) mean NOTHING?? Does this great Canadian law of ours expect me to stay with someone like this? Because if I have to pay his way through life, then I might as well have stayed. Does our law actually condone behaviour like my ex's? Apparently so. If it were anyone else, would they not be put in jail for drug use, and not providing (the necessities of life) for their children?

                My lawyer suggests that he must first be found to be entitled. He does not believe that he is. I find it very disheartening that the people who have responded to my question disagree. Do you think I am completely wasting my money and time? Do you believe I should just shrug my shoulders and say, "okay" -- and then have to take myself and child out of our home, because now I can't afford to live there.

                Don't get me wrong -- I do appreciate everyone's input, even if it sounds like I don't agree with your responses, but I guess I just find it hard to believe that laws like this exist. I have a definite problem (not just because it is probably going to be me) with the "good" guy getting screwed over by the "bad" guy, and it seems to me this is happening all too often where our laws are concerned.

                As for the previous question, yes, he was earning close to $40,000 in the early '90's, but got laid off from that position, and he never recovered - financially as well as emotionally he loved that job and was very lucky to get it having no education. He received a $10,000 severance package, to which I urged him to go to school, but he never did, and that is when he began to go to bingo. He mourned losing that job and that is when I knew he "lost" a part of himself because he could not get another job that paid near that amount of money.

                Well, it should be interesting to see how this goes. I do intend to defend my position that he is not entitled though, however stupid and wrong I may be. I just don't feel a "plea bargain" here will do anything, I have tried so many times to negotiate with him, but he thinks he will get $12,000 per year for life from me, so how do you try to top that?

                Hope everyone has a good week and stays safe.

                Customgal

                Comment


                • #23
                  Hi Customgal

                  I've been reading this thread and I just wanted to tell you that I can literally feel your frustration coming through the computer screen at me! I understand your frustration so greatly and I know how difficult it is to go through what you are going through. I have stopped posting here for a while now, not because I don't like what people are telling me, but because I have been judged and my personal story is being used against me. Example: I told the group that my ex is claiming to be disabled and I know she's totally not and is using it to obtain long-term spousal support. Never seen the woman spend one day in bed due to her dubious "disablility" yet all of a sudden she's claiming to be unable to get out of bed to go to work. I've had people here tell me to stop whining and the validity of what I am saying has been under fire and questioned on numerous occasions. That is a very difficult thing for me and it's the same as being called a liar as far as I'm concerned.

                  On the other hand, there are some very sympathetic and open ears here and I would tell you that I"ve received a lot of wonderful advice and a lot of understanding people. This is an extremely stressful time for you....for me too. It is a time when you need a soft place and kind words. For me, I have been severly depressed and suffering from anxiety attacks due to the situation I am in and some people here are not exactly sympathetic and don't always say things that are appropriate. I choose to completely ignore these messages. At a time when I am needing support and feeling so low that I question my will to go on, I certainly don't need to hear from someone who is judgemental or harsh. But, as I've said, the majority of people here are very wonderful and will offer you advice in a gentle way...they will listen to you and often times will say something simple that can make the difference to your day.

                  I feel your frustration! I am probably in the same place that you are right now when you are discovering how unfair the laws are. It's almost so overwhelmingly unfair and unjust that I cannot believe that educated people came up with them!!

                  Please feel free to email me personally if you are feeling a need to vent your frustrations. Sometimes when you do it here certain members feel a need to poop on you when you're already down! HA! Most of the members are very understanding though. Keep plugging away!! Vent if you need to and don't get discouraged! This site has a lot to offer and I think that when you're done venting and you get all your frustrations out, you will probably gain a lot from the knowledge other members have. Both from personal experience and also from a legal perspective.

                  I wish you the very best and you are in my thoughts.
                  Gooddadgoingmad

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I know the law seems to suck for you- but it is what it is. The advice given is based on the law and those guidelines. If it isn't what you want to hear that sucks but it is what it is.... sorry if that sounds bizarre.

                    The fact that what he is making isn't too far off what he has always made isn't a good sign for you either. If it looked like he made tons of money in the past and was capable of making more - then you could argue for income to be imputed to him.


                    Like Jeff said- the fact that you have kids and have at least a year of child support could work in your favour. He may take less spousal support for being released of the post secondary schooling and child support. I did mention something about that in a previous post. That and you may need to neogotiate a higher equilization payment etc...

                    Either that or as Jeff talked about( and didn't reccommend) is drag it out and take your chances that he will settle for less support then he may be entitled to or that the off chance the courts don't rule for him as he suggests they would ( I believe he said that court ordered support is usually higher and you end up paying a portion of his costs) Which would be very expensive in the long run. Which if you are willing to take that risk - go for it. I wouldn't if it was me. But that is me.

                    keep us updating on how things are going.....

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      customgal, I truly feel for you, your frustration is obvious. I know that these laws do not make any sense and I truly hope you will not be ordered to pay. Perhaps a lot of us sound like a bunch of 'doomsdayers' but many of us have been dragged through these battles or know others who have and its not pretty by far.

                      It doesn't seem right that a person who is fully capable of supporting him or herself gets to rely on someone elses hard work to get by in their own life. From what I understand he will need to submit financial records in order to proove his 'need' and I doubt he's gonna put 'beer - $200/month, pot $100/month'.. on that paperwork and submit it to court...at least I hope he isn't that lacking in intelligence cause I'm quite sure that won't fly in front of a judge.

                      From my own limited exeperience I've gained through my own situation and a few friends, depending on a few financial factors ( such as if you even have any money left over at the end of the month) you have a 50/50 shot here. Whether thats good news or bad news to you..you'll have to decide.


                      I really hope changes to these laws are forthcoming in the near future..although marriage is a partnership I don't think one person should be bonded to another forever and ever if the marriage doesn't work out..and hopefully there can be an idea of personal responsibility brought to court proceedings in the not too distant future.

                      I hope things turn out well for you, and as much as anyone can say here the only people who can really give you a pretty solid opinion are your lawyer(s) as they know the depth of your situation.

                      Good luck to you!!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Although wouldn't it be quite funny if he did put his real figures down lol

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I'd pay to see the look on the judges face for sure!!!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Thank you everyone, I do appreciate your taking the time to write and offer advice.

                            Gooddadgoingmad, I just may take you up on your offer to e-mail you personally, so don't be surprised if you hear from me in the next few days.

                            As for his financial statement, he has yet to supply us with one. We have been asking for it since August. I think whatever figures he will put down on it will be lies or incorrect. I have a feeling he is going to say that he pays for things that he doesn't, but he is a terrible record/receipt keeper, so I am almost certain if he does that I will catch him, in which case, I would like to think his credibility will be at stake.

                            I have affidavits from people attesting to his bingo, booze, pot buying, etc. I will actually bet that he will have more money left over at the end of the month then I do, seeing as how I pay for the majority of everything. Won't that count for anything? Like I said before, I may make double what he makes, but I pay triple (or more) then what he pays. I really don't have that much money left over at the end of the month.

                            Unless the courts expect me to take my daughter out of her home to live God-knows-where because this credent is being selfish and greedy, I have no idea where this money is going to come from to pay him with.

                            I agree that it is a 50/50 shot, but I have to try it. These people, such as Gooddadgoingmad's ex and my ex, should not be paid out!

                            I have been doing alot of thinking about this...is there someone we can write to to voice our opinions about these laws? Some MP somewhere? Who is responsible for these laws? I would certainly love to send out a letter telling whoever the politicians who created this mess what a crock spousal support is. Especially today, when there are so many opportunities available, with gov't aid for education, etc. If anyone knows who I could send a letter to (I realize it will do very little good), I would appreciate that.

                            Maybe if enough of us who are getting screwed over voice our opinion, it will make someone take a closer look at the havoc that they have created.

                            Canada has got to stop being a country of complainers who do nothing about the messed up laws here and take an example from our neighbour to the south -- the U.S. would never sit back and take this.

                            I know I am probably dreaming, but like I said, maybe if enough of us write Ottawa and tell them what our experiences are with the Family Law Act, something will be done -- sooner rather then later.

                            Customgal

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              God I am having a pain posting today lol sorry if this appears more than once.

                              Customgal- I read in another thread your daughter has three more years of high school plus college? THAT is definitely in your favour. Child support unlike spousal isn't tax deductable to the payor. That could be 7 years of child support he would have to pay. That would definitely be something to negotiate with him. He doesn't have to contribute to her education and support her and he waives or accepts less spousal (which is taxable to him) Your son is living common law so he is pretty much out of the picture. But your daughter- especially if she is going to school after high school another story Good news about the records too. That is the biggest thing I have learned after this- better records! If you give him a huge list of what you have been covering , what he would owe you for child support/university costs etc. You might scare the carp out of him. August is far too long to wait for his disclosure! Not sure what your options are here with this - what does your lawyer say about this?? ?It pretty much stalls everything until that is done. I wonder what they can do to compell him to submit his?

                              About showing your displeasure ... I would write to your MP imo. I would suggest a letter to the editor of your paper but that could end up biting you in the butt with the courts. Maybe others would have better options. It will be a long time before seeing reform though. The courts will swing back and forth as they have been - right now we are looking at record high support orders. Not a time to take your chances imho.

                              Have you set a number in your head to what you would spend on this? ( really meaning financially- but emotionally as well?) 10 000? 25 000? 50 000? 100 000? Might be something to think about before you get too much into the fight. Forgive me if I am wrong but I think it was Grace who was given an estimate from her lawyers that it would be 100 000 by the time it was over. I've heard lots of people who have spent easily 30 000 on lawyers and court fees. Freaks me right out! I know he doesn't have the money - but maybe he is building up a debt and/or feels confident that you will end up paying 1/2 - 2/3 of his costs too- who knows what he is thinking I estimate my amicable divorce will cost about 10 000 after both of us pay the lawyers. We should have done it differently but this was the way we ended up going. BTW - we both get along well and it is just negotiations. Nothing too big and the cost is still pretty high. Just food for thought. I know if I had known it would end up being this expensive - we may have done it another way.

                              I take it you don't believe in spousal support under any situation? I personally believe it serves a good purpose and as with many things can be abused( I would not lump gooddad's wife in there personally!)

                              gooddadgoingmad- hmmmmm I wonder who you could be talking about in your post LMAO. Thought you were going to ignore me?

                              Sorry I don't have sympathy for your financial situation. Your wife stayed at home 17 yrs - 6 yrs with your daughter and is now on welfare while you make 95 000 a year now. I don't believe that your wife deserves nothing as you do. Very few people would imo. Hell, I think $600/mt was very reasonable! I would imagine she will get more if it goes further. And with her welfare and legal aide it will. Hell welfare will make her go for support. They believe that the former spouse has the obligation over the state. BTW - even without her documented disability she would still get it- by staying at home and in a long term marriage -that alone would entitle her.

                              I do have sympathy for you being away from your daughter. Sure I think it is sad you have anxiety and depression issues as MANY of us do. I hope counselling helps for you. That and medication can work wonders.

                              Since you are ignoring my posts I don't expect to hear from you lol I expect to hear little things like this in the future- feel free to name names - we all know who you are talking about.

                              jenny

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hello group:

                                I've been a guest for a while, browsing the posts and learning a lot from this fantastic forum. I've considered posting for a while but it wasn't until I read Jenny's post that I felt the need to say something.

                                I think it is completely unnecessary for you to behave the way you are. I've been following all the posts here and I notice an ongoing tendency with you Jenny and it's obvious that you have some disdain for men and you seem to be on a warpath about spousal support. I hate having to read posts like yours which are a deterrent to becoming a member of this group. I'm going through a lot in my life and the last thing I would need is to come across a member like you who is nasty. Is is really necessary to put ( lol's ) in your posts? Personally, I think you've got far too much time on your hands. It's because of people like you that I have avoided posting anything here. Time to get a life girl!

                                Good dad going mad, I've read all of your posts and I feel for your situation. Jenny is trying to get to you, obviously. I too have an ex spouse who is lieing and is lazy. He is also on welfare and refuses to go to work. It's a very difficult thing when you work so hard while the other person does nothing. Keep trying to contact your little boy. I can only imagine how hard it must be for you, living in isolation and your ex getting in the way of your contact with your child. How selfish.

                                Keep the faith!
                                Kim

                                Comment

                                Our Divorce Forums
                                Forums dedicated to helping people all across Canada get through the separation and divorce process, with discussions about legal issues, parenting issues, financial issues and more.
                                Working...
                                X