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  • CS and SS negotiating strategy

    I should put an offer on the table and unsure what to offer. I hope I can get some advice.

    Facts:
    - Plan is for 50/50 custody split
    - I’ve been paying all bills (including DTBX cellphone) for last 6 years. We’ve been together 8 years since our oldest daughter was born - never married
    - She was working up till 2012 making $45k
    - She ran home daycare 2013-2017 making ~$20k
    - She now works under table for a private business (friend) making $15k tax-free.
    - 95% of this money has been her pocket money, contributed very little money or time to the family
    - I make $110k
    - 3 kids: 7,5,3
    - We have completed a plan for equalization - I know I’ve been more than generous and she says she agrees (though it’s not as much money as she “needs”)
    - Trying to agree on everything ourselves and only get lawyers review and mediator sign off after and so far it’s been very amicable.

    Options:
    1) Offer full table value CS ($2k per month) but no SS (sign off SA that she waives any right to SS)
    - this best protects under-table paying friend from audit
    - I believe this doesn’t deter me from imputing income in future
    2) impute 30k (minimum wage) and set CS for that ($1700)
    - then add SS - I’m thinking 1-time $10k payout which I can borrow against mortgage refresh
    3) impute 20k (realistic current money she’s making)
    - then add SS - maybe 100 per month?

    Do I use the threat of having her friend screwed by auditors?
    Complicating factor: she’s completely delusional and is shopping around for 400,000 houses to move to and wants this done as quick as possible so she can buy her house. She hasn’t talked to a mortgage broker - I’ve only warned her that she may not be able to afford everything she wants (#understatement)
    As well I think she’s got a friend telling her that she’s going to get a windfall

  • #2
    I'll split up your comments into relevant and irrelevant.


    Let's start with irrelevant...


    Originally posted by Futureisbright View Post
    - I’ve been paying all bills (including DTBX cellphone) for last 6 years. We’ve been together 8 years since our oldest daughter was born - never married
    - She was working up till 2012 making $45k
    - 95% of this money has been her pocket money, contributed very little money or time to the family
    - We have completed a plan for equalization - I know I’ve been more than generous and she says she agrees (though it’s not as much money as she “needs”)

    It doesn't matter what you paid for the last 6 years.
    It doesn't matter how much she earned 6 years ago.
    It doesn't matter how she spent what little she made.
    It doesn't matter how nice your equalization is.
    It doesn't matter if she agrees verbally with your characterization of the equalization.




    And now the relevant
    - Plan is for 50/50 custody split
    - She ran home daycare 2013-2017 making ~$20k
    - I make $110k
    - 3 kids: 7,5,3
    Her salary is $20k
    Your salary is $110k
    You have 3 young kids.
    It is trivial to calculate what will be ordered by a court. If she wants more, then go to court. If she wants less, then accept her offer.


    And sorta relevant
    - She now works under table for a private business (friend) making $15k tax-free.
    That's still about $20k gross, probably less, I don't feel like calculating it.


    Do I use the threat of having her friend screwed by auditors?
    If you are hoping to make sure that you go to court, absolutely!

    Complicating factor: she’s completely delusional and is shopping around for 400,000 houses to move to and wants this done as quick as possible so she can buy her house. She hasn’t talked to a mortgage broker - I’ve only warned her that she may not be able to afford everything she wants (#understatement)
    This may not stay as amicable as you are hoping. Better start shopping around for lawyers.


    Also, being condescending to someone when you are asking them for a favour is not necessarily a great negotiation tactic. Not saying you are, but I suspect that you are.

    As well I think she’s got a friend telling her that she’s going to get a windfall
    Have her propose some offers first, see where her head is at. If she has a friend telling her about a windfall, prepare for court.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Janus for the detailed response.
      I agree with your relevant / irrelevant split.

      Reference to “audit threat” is just trying to avoid beating around the bush. The referred friend is also a friend to me and I absolutely want to avoid creating trouble for someone who definitely doesn’t deserve it. I do want to make it clear that if we end up in court I will need her to disclose her income and trouble may be a side effect. I expect the best chance to avoid collateral damage is an agreement via SA that is fair and not revisited.

      I agree with suggestion that she make the first offer. I don’t think it will work since she chooses not to make the effort to educate herself on what the fair values are and is expecting me to provide this. I am trying to offer something that is fair while avoiding being a charity at the same time and avoid opening myself up to future problems.

      I do know what her ‘expectations’ are based on the shopping she’s doing (new car/new house) and these are completely unaffordable. I try very hard to avoid being condescending though it is a challenge. I have tried to make it clear that while a split is agreed to be the best thing for our family it is not expected to be a financial-quality-of-life improvement. She seems to ignore that.

      Sounds like CS table with her income at $20k is reasonable and you are not comfortable suggesting what is a potential fair SS value. Recommend that to be negotiated by lawyers.

      Anyone else with suggestions on what is a fair SS value? Monthly or 1-time?

      Comment


      • #4
        Sorry, I can answer SS. How long have you been married?

        Comment


        • #5
          Is she entitled to support? Has she asked for SS? Check out mysupportcalculator to what would most likely be ordered... I would suggest putting forth an offer that is a little less than what you are planning to settle for because she will always come back for more.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Futureisbright View Post
            Reference to “audit threat” is just trying to avoid beating around the bush. The referred friend is also a friend to me and I absolutely want to avoid creating trouble for someone who definitely doesn’t deserve it. I do want to make it clear that if we end up in court I will need her to disclose her income and trouble may be a side effect. I expect the best chance to avoid collateral damage is an agreement via SA that is fair and not revisited.
            1. Don't make threats to bring a criminal action in a civil proceeding. That is called EXTORTION.

            2. Raise the evidence in an affidavit in support of a request to have the other party's income imputed. Furthermore, ask for the financial disclosures in accordance with the FLR.

            3. You don't need to threaten anything. Simply ask for the disclosure in accordance with the rules.

            4. This is the perfect way to make yourself look like (or you may be) a controlling jackass.

            Originally posted by Futureisbright View Post
            I agree with the suggestion that she make the first offer.
            Make all the offers you want. Don't wait to go second.

            Originally posted by Futureisbright View Post
            I don’t think it will work since she chooses not to make the effort to educate herself on what the fair values are and is expecting me to provide this. I am trying to offer something that is fair while avoiding being a charity at the same time and avoid opening myself up to future problems.
            Make a reasonable offer to settle.

            Read this article: http://www.highconflictinstitute.com...ople-negotiate

            Originally posted by Futureisbright View Post
            I have tried to make it clear that while a split is agreed to be the best thing for our family it is not expected to be a financial-quality-of-life improvement. She seems to ignore that.
            Joint accounts closed? If not then do it now. Line of credits and cards closed or locked down? If not then do it now.

            OTher than that... WHo cares?! Even with full SS and CS the other parent is not going to live like royalty. They are going to run out of money faster thats all. Which means you may be put in a position where the kids are coming to you 100% of the time and full table support. I say let the other parent spend themselves into oblivion.

            Originally posted by Futureisbright View Post
            Anyone else with suggestions on what is a fair SS value? Monthly or 1-time?
            "I come now to the issue of spousal support, historically the roulette of family law (blindfolds, darts and Ouija boards being optional)" - The Very Honourable Frank and Honest Mr. Justice Quinn

            SS is just what Justice Quinn says...

            Comment


            • #7
              We have been common-law married since April 2010, so 7 3/4 years. I believe she’s entitled based on the fact that she has been in reduced employment to allow for being with the kids and that she has been provided a standard of living that she wouldn’t maintain on her own. I don’t expect to maintain my standard of living either of course.

              The Spousal Support calculators have a very broad range.

              Am I out to lunch in the expectation that CS / SS combined can’t possibly be more than half of my take home income?

              Thanks for your help everyone, goodness knows I need it

              Comment


              • #8
                SS at mid-level for 42 months then done.

                8 years is really not a long time to be married. SS won't be forever in your matter and it shouldn't be.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks Tayken,
                  That’s careful and useful advice. The link is very accurate and I will put it to use.
                  SS mid-level and table CS is a mouthful but it isn’t more than half my take-home so I guess it’s reasonable. Though she would then have (for 42 months at least) a larger monthly take-home than me. I need to decide if I can accept that. I know my future is brighter in the long run in such a situation. I wonder if I should put in SA that S7 payments as 50/50 while she’s receiving SS. Is that done sometimes?

                  I suppose I should have been (or still be) a bit more detailed in equalization. I have agreed to transfer more than I need to.

                  Anybody decide on a lump-sum SS agreement? Loses tax deduction but maybe reduces any negative feelings on a monthly basis? I’m clearly not a fan of providing ‘support’ to an adult on a monthly basis.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Am I out of line to calculate that mid-level SS when combined with CS and her modest income will leave her with more than me at the end of the day?

                    Or maybe I should just suck it up and be satisfied that I’m removing my kids from a toxic household and allowing myself an opportunity for happiness.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Make an offer like this, with this logic.

                      Your table CS for $110k income is $2078.
                      Full-time minimum wage is around $31k now. CS for that is $645.
                      So offset would be that you pay her 2078 - 645 = $1433. (Don't get me started on the fairer half-offset though)

                      Offer her that amount. No SS. You never married her, so there is no legal obligation to support her. Now that she is a single person, she should be employed and supporting herself to the best of her ability. It's much better for her to go out and get a minimum wage job than it is to keep doing whatever it is she's doing now, though better still to get whatever type of job she was qualified for that paid $45k six years ago.

                      If she whines about SS, or being imputed an income, remind her that she is getting more than her fair share of equalization to help her out while she gets on her own feet. Ask if she'd rather equalization was perfectly fair and get the difference in monthly payments as SS instead until it runs out.

                      If (okay, when) she rejects it, ask her to make a return offer. That's how negotiations work.

                      If you feel generous, you could increase the offer to include a finite SS (no 'review' - just finite) just until the youngest child is in school. Maybe another year if she needs some retraining to get back into her previous career. It sounds like she does have a bit of entitlement based on her taking some career damage for the mutual decision to have her stay home with the kids. But don't let yourself fall into the 'same standard of living' trap. Yes, while she was in the relationship with you, she enjoyed the perks of that relationship which included your nice income. Now that the relationship is over, the perks go too. (if you have a job that includes a company car as a perk, if you leave the job, you are certainly not entitled to keep the car because you 'got used to it') Your offered SS end point shouldn't be based on the length of the relationship. Her career 'damage' didn't even start until a few years in. Base your amount and duration on what she needs to return to the expected self-sufficiency of someone of her qualifications.

                      If she chooses to keep working under the table for her friend, or doing daycare, that's her choice. She's still imputed to full-time minimum wage so at least you aren't subsidizing that choice.

                      This has a number of advantages. It leaves your mutual friend right out of things. It also sets up offset CS as the system to use based on your 50-50 arrangement. Don't set the precedent of paying full table CS even though you have 50-50. She could go out and get a great $75k job the next day and you'd be stuck paying full table. It also sets up her being imputed an income so she's not just underemploying herself and expecting a rise in CS to make up for it.

                      Lots of people work full time when their children are much younger than 3. It was nice that she could stay home with the kids when you were together, but now that you are breaking up, that arrangement is also busted.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Futureisbright View Post
                        Am I out of line to calculate that mid-level SS when combined with CS and her modest income will leave her with more than me at the end of the day?

                        Or maybe I should just suck it up and be satisfied that I’m removing my kids from a toxic household and allowing myself an opportunity for happiness.
                        If you can afford a one-time SS it may be better to do that. But, as you are dealing with a situation of SS I would highly recommend you retain a GOOD lawyer to review your matter with.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I like Rioe's advice. I would inject into it in an early stage before offering monthly SS a one-time payment at an appropriate sum prior to going monthly.

                          Why?

                          Once a monthly SS regime comes into play there are all sorts of way to have it continue on forever under a "material change in circumstance". Lots of matters settle with just paying 200$ then, that person gets fired and makes a material change request and then wham... you are on the hook for 2000 a month.

                          Monthly support paid establish a status quo that can be VERY HARD to break.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            That’s great feedback Rioe and Tayken.
                            There is a risk that a reasonable offer may not be received in a reasonable manner.
                            That shouldn’t stop me from starting with a reasonable offer. I expect that she would prefer a 1-time SS lump sum. That is not tax deductible I understand but your point of not setting precedent for monthly payments helping to avoid possible future increases is appreciated as something I hadn’t thought of. This is also an even better way of making SS finite as Rioe recommends. If this means I need to borrow to get this money it still seems like the best option.
                            Her penchant to spend money means that a 1-time payment may not be the best solution for her but I’ve been practicing my new mantra “Not my Problem”
                            We have a sit down tonight where I will make this reasonable CS offer, show her that this along with her current income sources would be equivalent to a $50k salary and see if I can get her to okay it.
                            Note the CS I plan to offer will be set-off from my income vs her current income (20k) not minimum wage. Call me a sucker if you like.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Jsut a suggestion ofter CS base on the input of min wage of 30K and if she refuses go to the 20K option.

                              If she takes the 30k great for you and if not you have another option to offer with the 20k.

                              Comment

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