Dealing with A Self Employed

[qtpys4]

I just want to make a HUGE suggestion to anyone who is dealing with a self employed person & looking for support, be it child or spousal support.

After a 23 year marriage, when I first started into the unknown land of separation & lawyers & my new 'Jerry Springer' life, my lawyer suggested I do a forensic audit on my ex husband. I didnt have the $5,000. he said it would cost to do it. But, unknown to me also, because my ex had not filed or paid his personal income tax for 4 years, Rev. Can. did do a forensic audit. Also unknown to me till months after separation, because of his tardiness with Rev. Can. they had put a writ of execution against our home to collect. Rev. Can. and I were in constant contact back then & she told me 'I wish I could tell you what we found but I cannot..but we found alot'. She went on to say that he would never, ever own anything again, ever in his life & anyone dealing with him would go down with him.'

He kept me in the court system for 4 years!! At a cost to me of $50,000.!!! And we were not rich people. I had loan after loan. He absolutely refused full financial disclosure & his lawyer came up with constant reasons for postponements..that is what kept us in court. In the end, my support for 3 children was based on a notional $60,000, altho I had proof he made over $100,000. I had the family home signed over to me with a writ of execution against it for $65,000. and a mortgage of $140,000. (He was a mortgage broker and all his friends were in the finance or legal field, would allow legal documents to come home and just plunked papers in front of me for a signature...silly me, I trusted him..I was so naive). He had given me a bad credit rating due to a line of credit he had me sign in the hospital, the day after giving birth to our 3rd child.
The first thing he did after he was caught in the hotel with his young assistant, was change the mailing address on the line of credit so I wouldnt get any notices, then he stopped paying it...the bank came after me with a garnishment..three times that happened till he was ordered by the courts to pay in full. Because I had had no idea about this line of credit, he was ordered to pay it and they had always called this a spousal support payment.

Right after our agreement was signed, I was laid off my well paying job. I found another job 3 months later, and got laid off from that 11 months later. Just before the 2nd layoff, my mother had to have very disfiguring cancer surgery. She had just returned from 6 weeks of daily radiation treatments, I was checking on her daily and she seemed in too much pain so she came to stay with the kids & I so I could keep an eye on her while still trying to find work. She was incapable of doing anything for herself & I became her advocate with the health care system...she lived with us for a year till she passed away in our home. I was (and still am) devastated and could no longer stay in this house, sold it and moved an hr north where I didnt know a soul, and had no job..and was grieving, immensely.

Once he learned our oldest daughter didnt move with me, he cut off 1/3 of child support payment. Yes, I agree, he wouldnt have to pay for her, but there is a process, that I was denied. My voice should have been heard in court.
It took me 4 years to finally find a job, part time at minimum wage...but I took anything I could get. My son, got a job, and was transferred..support again, cut in 2/3. I couldnt survive on my meager wages and now only 1/3 of support. I emailed him & begged him to please not reduce it...to no avail.

Because of a number of change of circumstances, I set about taking him back to court for child support at his now $140,000. income & spousal support that I had not received.

Once again, constant postponements...refusal of any financial information. He did fill out a financial statement stating he now makes $30,000..this after paying all the mortgage & utilities (business expenses) in the home owned only by his young assistant girlfriend.

So September marked the 3 year mark we have been involved with the court system. His young assistant girlfriend kicked him out last April and he is devastated. Karma feels good. I have been living off credit cards since he last reduced support. A few months back, I couldnt make the minimum payments, so the bank was kind and generous enough to put a mortgage on the house based on our original separation papers & the recent court papers showing I would receive support.

But our November 6 court date, postponed indefinitely now. He is claiming to be homeless, has no food, had to borrow money for gas to go to his psychologist appointment and even had to WALK to his lawyer office. And support, even the 1/3 child support, CUT OFF. I seriously do not know what I am going to do. I have reduced my expenses as far as I can go. I havent had a vacation in 16 years, I owe $2,500. in property tax, I dont make enough to pay the few bills I do have, mortgage payment. There is nothing left for gas or food. If you are dealing with a self employed.....the best money you will spend is that $5,000. for a forensic audit, right off the bat......

[blinkandimgone]

My suggestion would be paragraphs, if you would like others to read or respond to your post

[arabian]

I can feel and understand only too well the pain and anguish you must be going through right now. Dealing with self-employed and the courts is a totally different cut of tea.

The first thing you should do is learn to be gentle with yourself. When divorce is upon us we will made decisions we come to later regret. It is inevitable. You have to let that go. It was then and this is now. The forensic accounting would have cost you much more than 5,000.00 I can assure you. The 5,000.00 was likely just a retainer required at the time.

There are some good people working at CRA. I too was on first-name basis with several of them. They helped me a great deal initially in my ordeal. They unfortunately will tell you things that they really aren't in a position to tell you. An example is that they shouldn't have told you your husband would own nothing again in the future. That's nonsense. He can go bankrupt (if he hasn't already) and be off the hook in as little as 9 months. Yes you shouldn't have signed the papers he put in front of you but you were likely doing what anyone in your situation would do - sign and keep the peace in the family. I know I signed my house off to my ex thinking it would simplify things. I was tired of listening over and over to his lousy business decisions and just didn't want to be involved anymore. That was a decision that did come back to haunt me years later.

Now is the time for you to look forward rather than back. Forget the woulda, couldas. They are irrelevant at this point.

You have to accept the reality head on. Your ex has substantial arrears that you may never be paid. You need to get yourself in a position where you can support the children on your own and look at the SS as gravy (if you get any).

with the child support that is an entirely different matter. I'd fight hard to retain that.

A house is just a house and they are replaceable. You have to look for the cheapest place that you can find right now. don't despair - it's not forever. But it is important that in becoming self sufficient you ease the financial month to month, day to day stress that you get your household in order. Sell the house and find something you can afford.

If you have documented information about his 140,000.00 employment you can use it to have judge impute income. This means that he will have to pay it whether or not he makes it right now. Lets just call it incentive. If he refuses to pay he will eventually lose his license and could go to jail.

get a job, any job but just get working and stick to it. Get financial help by going to a debt consulting service that is free in your province. They will help you make a plan simple enough for you to stick to.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. You can do this! Get rid (sell) all of your "stuff" and pay some bills. You will feel an immense sense of relief. Before you know it you will start to feel a sense of control back in your life.

Hobbies - cleaning, sorting, selling your stuff. It will keep you occupied and it is therapeutic to get rid of stuff.

Good luck!

[qtpys4]

Thank you very much Arabian for your thoughtful response.


I had a long talk with my best friend the other day about it, and she basically told me the same thing...I have to give it up. Altho I need the money, I need my sanity more. I dont think there is any point in pursuing anything with a self employed who clearly has wanted me on welfare from the beginning. And I guess that is what my post is for, to enlighten other woman who are dealing with self employed. In my case, between being laid off from 2 jobs, taking care of my ill mother, moving and unable to find work while dealing with my depression, I have never been able to get on my feet financially.

I have been selling things for quite some time to assist me to pay bills..and will continue to sell. I am considering allowing someone to move in but am hesitant to do it. Aside from the property tax owing, my daughter and I are in desperate need of dental care, and glasses. Those two luxuries are not in the forseeable future unless I find a way to get alot more money than my wages or selling 'things' will allow.

I forgot to mention, after our papers were signed the first time, the ex did file bankruptcy & wiped out his $65,000. personal income tax debt. Then didnt file again, till Rev. Can did his taxes for him four years later!! His girlfriend, she was a newly wed 19 years his junior, was 6 years older than our oldest daughter. That daughter hasnt spoken to her father for 16 yrs and he seems ok with that since he has made no effort whatsoever to make amends. When he left me, he left the four of us.

He and his girlfriend have enjoyed years of travel, motorcycle trips etc.

I believe an honest man, gets screwed in the courts. But the self employed, they can manipulate it to their advantage so their family struggles.

[standing on the sidelines]

have you talked to social services to see if there are any programs geared to help you and your daughter? Get on the list for subsidized housing etc.

[Mess]

Once he learned our oldest daughter didnt move with me, he cut off 1/3 of child support payment. Yes, I agree, he wouldnt have to pay for her, but there is a process, that I was denied. My voice should have been heard in court.
......

I can sympathise with much of your story, but this part is telling.

Over 90% of couples are able to settle out of court. Think about what you are really saying here. Your daughter is no longer living with you, child support should end. Instead of just ending it, you feel that you should have had an opportunity to go to court.

Over what issue?

Court is not there to give us a voice. It is there for when two people cannot reasonably settle a conflict on their own.

Your conflict wasn't about child support. Your conflict is about your feelings about your ex - much of them justified - but court is not the place to settle those feelings.

Taking an issue like ending child support to court, so that you can be "heard" is a waste, not just of your money, but my money t, money that I pay to the government to provide for the buildings, judges, staff, etc. Misusing the court for a purpose like that isn't your "right."

Some of your financial issues with your ex sound legitimate, but you are mixing too much emotion into a process that needs to be factual.

We all wish we could sue the ass off of our exes for the crime of being jackasses. That's not what the system is built for.

[Serene]

Mess, you are a wise, wise, wise individual.

I'm going to print out what you wrote above and remind myself of it often. I try and keep my nose clean.

90 percent of couples settle out of court. I hate that we are not within that 90%.

Life goes on!

[FightingForFamily]

Well said Mess

[qtpys4]

Thanks for your input Mess...I would LOVE to settle out of court. The only thing lawyers do is suck you dry..they are the only real winners. Unfortunately, my ex has always wanted me on welfare.

As an example, two days after giving birth to our 3 child, he brought line of credit papers to the hospital for my signature...foolish me, I trusted him. He was, and still is, a mortgage broker and all his friends are either lawyers or in the financial field and they allowed legal papers come home for my signature without anything but my trusted husband's word as to what and why I was signing.

The day I caught him and his young assistant in the hotel, he never came back home. The first thing he did was change the mailing address on the line of credit, then stopped making payments. The bank came after me...I knew nothing of this line of credit until I had them fax me the originals & saw I signed it 2 days after giving birth.

I also learned after we separated, that he hadnt paid personal income taxes for 4 years and there was a writ of execution against the house for $64,000. And the home we purchased 17 years before for $89,900. now had a mortgage of $140,000.

I believe his plan was..giving me a bad credit rating so if/when the house gets signed over to me, I wouldnt be able to get a mortgage, so the bank would take over the house, and his writ would be satisfied.

I was denied a mortgage...but I was fortunate enough to have a grandfather
who was able to take over my mortgage. I worked hand in hand with Rev Can and they removed the writ because the house was going into my name. In my opinion, it foiled his plan--so he was forced to file bankruptcy for his taxes.

We spent 4 yrs in court the first time, he absolutely refused financial disclosure. My support was based on a notional income..

Your opinion is contrary to what any legal person I have spoken to has said. The legal people I have spoken to have all said that a court order is enforceable unless a court changes that court order...not to be changed arbitrarily by the payer. If we had gone thru the FRO, FRO wouldnt change the support order on his say-so. He would have had to take me back to court to change that court order. If I was working at the time, if I was not grieving the loss of my poor mom and being treated for depression, if, if if,....my life changed into a Jerry Springer show with his actions since all this happened. One day I am getting X amount, the next day -$365.

I totally agree, when a child leaves, there is no obligation..but for him to change support on his own, without warning, without notice, at the worst time in my life, I would have appreciated my voice be heard in court instead of adding the trauma of more financial devastation.

And really, I didnt post this for advice, or criticism....my only intent was to warn other woman of self employed people to get as much info as they possibly can, proof of income, accounts, etc....and what I thought was a $5,000. forensic audit....altho another member knew it was more costly...I didnt realize that. Just do whatever you can...self employed can hide, deny, and lie..and play the courts..wasting your limited funds that could be better spent on your children, and wasting court time.

[arabian]

The legal people I have spoken to have all said that a court order is enforceable unless a court changes that court order...not to be changed arbitrarily by the payer. If we had gone thru the FRO, FRO wouldnt change the support order on his say-so. He would have had to take me back to court to change that court order.

This is indeed true. FRO/MEP can be the only way to collect from a self-employed individual. Unfortunately there are problems with these programs as well regarding an ex who goes bankrupt. If you want any additional information on that you can PM me.

The ordeal you are going through is very, very tough. There are no books or guidelines to help people in this sort of a situation. I learned quite a bit of good information from this forum and had only wished that I knew of its existence at the start of my divorce proceedings. My lawyer continues to be wonderful and was very patient explaining things to me. I know now that had i had more knowledge at that time I would have done things differently. One example is how I basically "spun my wheels" with the corporate lawyers. They were a total waste of my time. I spent a year conferring with corporate lawyer only to find out that that he refused to do any court-room litigation and I was redirected to another lawyer who wanted a HUGE retainer. My poor family law lawyer had to deal with many matters that he shouldn't have. I was just fortunate that he was intelligent and had a reasonably good grasp of corporate law.

The only advise I can offer you is to simply stay the course. Your ex and my ex sooner or later want to become legitimate law-abiding citizens again. It's in their nature to be braggarts and accepted by their peers as "Mr. Successful." When they do emerge they will be caught in their lies eventually.

So if you feel you are entitled to spousal support then go for it. Don't listen to the nay-sayers on this forum who try to deter you. SS, in my case, is the only means of trying to get back money that my ex and his g/f absconded from me. Collection through FRO/MEP is free! I don't know of anywhere else I can get money collected for free.

Remember, you are not the only one who signed away alot of money to an unscrupulous bastard.

[qtpys4]

Arabian...big hug...thank you for your understanding. You have to walk in the shoes before you truly understand what another is going through, and you have. Thank you.

[standing on the sidelines]

Your opinion is contrary to what any legal person I have spoken to has said. The legal people I have spoken to have all said that a court order is enforceable unless a court changes that court order...not to be changed arbitrarily by the payer. If we had gone thru the FRO, FRO wouldnt change the support order on his say-so. He would have had to take me back to court to change that court order. If I was working at the time, if I was not grieving the loss of my poor mom and being treated for depression, if, if if,....my life changed into a Jerry Springer show with his actions since all this happened. One day I am getting X amount, the next day -$365.

I totally agree, when a child leaves, there is no obligation..but for him to change support on his own, without warning, without notice, at the worst time in my life, I would have appreciated my voice be heard in court instead of adding the trauma of more financial devastation.

Did you tell him that the oldest wasn't moving with you? You knew that you would be cut off that amount of CS once this happened so you should have been preparing for it. Or were you hoping to keep collecting the same amount and him being none the wiser?

What would be the purpose of going to court? The judge would not care about it being the worst time in your life etc, so it would be a waste of court time and money, especially if you get dinged with costs.

[arabian]

If her ex has gone bankrupt (a few times now?) it very well might open the door a bit wider for her to seek and be successful in claiming SS. When someone goes bankrupt they are putting themselves in a much better financial position to pay SS.

It is easy for self-employed people to claim they are impoverished and, at the same time, live wonderful fulfilling lives. The lack of financial accountability for the self-employed makes these sorts of things quite simple. Working 'under the table' is the norm and using a g/f's credit card (because they don't have one due to the mean old ex wife forced them into bankruptcy) is commonplace. Bankruptcy laws prohibit an undischarged bankrupt from obtaining credit over a certain amount of money but this doesn't deter them because the 'good old boys' club is there to cover up for them.

I hope she considers the information I have provided to her and puts the boots to her ex. If she fits the criteria and she can manage to get CS for her daughter then all the better.

[standing on the sidelines]

I took it as she wants to go court to tell her side on the CS for the oldest that got cut off. That she expected him to take her to court to change that amount when in reality he was right to stop paying for the oldest that was no longer a child of the marriage. Yes he didn't do it the right way but the end result would have been the same. I wasn't meaning the other stuff.

The other stuff I think will be a long and hard road but persistence pays off. Just hope the OP has the steam to do it.

[arabian]

I agree standing. I think she has acknowledged the CS entitlement had come to an end. Due to extraordinary circumstances she was unable to get herself in a position where the discontinuation of CS wouldn't affect her standard of living.

If OP gets the right information and can find a clear path and direction she will be ok. From what I've read on this forum there are many good people at the court house who seem to help those who can't afford lawyers. She could also consider getting a lawyer under a 'limited retainer' to assist her to pursue SS if she can show entitlement. Even if the ex is currently broke it would be worth her while to get an order and have it filed with FRO. If her ex is in reasonably good health he will end up on someone's payroll somewhere. When that happens she might be able to recover some money.