Angry and venting - but advice always welcome!!

[ONTMOMMA]

So, if anyone has read my posts you'll see that I'm dealing with an ex who has not bothered with daughter since June. Daughter has had two or three convos on phone with father, but father insists daughter "apologize" before she is "allowed" to see him again. Yes, father of the year award over there please! (sarcasm - it makes being angry tolerable LOL)

Well, my bday was on the weekend and my new hubby, daughter and I decided to go to a local chain restaurant to celebrate. As we're being seated I see ex and family out of the corner of my eye....I ignore them.

Ex is with wife, other daughter (but not wife's daughter - there's another mom is this scenario). Other daughter is 2.5 years. Ex had access with both daughters on the same weekends, so essentially, my daughter should be sitting over at that table with them this weekend. Wife walks past with other daughter - ignores us. Confusion on little girl's face, but okay. Next thing I know, ex is speaking to our daughter. My girl starts bawling....many reasons. Hasn't seen dad since June. Dad has other daughter and not her. Dad never took our daughter out for dinner, ever. I asked them to leave politely, a few words flung my way, but eventually they left.

Email from other mom asking about "the scene"....apparently I caused one - did not happen. Other mom is well versed in dad's ways - knows he's lying through his teeth.

My girl - very upset. In past I've been accused and taken to court for "parental alienation". Last time, 2 years in court, two weeks later he's defaulted on every agreement he made with regards to access (which btw - were objected to by me in the first place, but I reluctantly agreed in the end). The access he asked and agreed to, I knew he wouldn't follow through on. Picking her up from school, taking to school....these are just things he will not do with any consistency. A couple of times to make it all "look good", but the reality is he can't get the required time off work to accomplish what he said he would.

I've been doing a lot of reading on alienation, estrangment, etc. I'm of the opinion that HE is creating the estrangement in this situation. I've told my girl she can apologize so she can see her dad (the girl has NO IDEA what she is apologizing for), or she can choose not to apologize and I'll support that (which I do because a couple of years ago it was me being forced to apologize for unknown things).

Opinion? Comment? Like I said, I'm venting here cause I'm angry, but the opinions of others on this site has been very welcome.

I plan to return to court in the new year with a motion for change in custody, access, s.7 supports, etc. Ex is actually in court on Monday for other mom - he's dragged her in accusing her of parental alienation for requesting a change in a few access dates due to dire personal situations (her mother died suddenly, she was dx with cancer, had surgery, had rounds of chemo and radiation, etc, etc). I've been asked to attend court by her lawyer. Bad idea, good idea?? Anyone??

[HammerDad]

I'd suggest you recommend to the kid that they apologize. At this point it is likely irrelevent what they are apologizing for. It is obvious that the disconnect is causing more issues that simply apologizing and moving forward.

The past is the past. It is time to move on. Dad obvious has his head up his ass and is likely being encouraged by his new spouse. Your daughter is obviously being encouraged by you to take stand as well (by stating you will stand by either decision is a form of encouraging her defiant stand).

But seriously, all this could've been avoided if your ex wasn't pig-headed and if the kid simply said sorry (for whatever). My daughter says sorry all the time to me for even the most minor things....I sometimes have no idea why she is even saying sorry as it wasn't anything I would concern myself with...but she does.

This is also a learning lesson for the child that sometimes being an adult is not always about taking a stand, it is sometimes backing down for the greater good.

Your kid is having a rough time. Maybe it is time to look to solving the problem instead of continuing to drag it out. Hopefully they will both learn that being stubborn isn't a successful/enjoyable way to live ones life.

[ONTMOMMA]

Thanks HammerDad. I've been aside myself on this. Do I support her? Or do I try and end this?? This is the second time of alienation by him. First time was when the court thing started. She reconciled with him, decided to see him and everything was quasi-okay (I mean the access happened). We signed agreement and two weeks after I found myself in exactly the same spot as 2 years ago. She apologized then to make ammends, but I'm beginning to think that she's realizing that all the apologies in the world isn't bringing "old dad" back (the dad that existing before he remarried).

She's been very closed-mouth about the dad situation. She's been told by him not to discuss with me what happens there, etc, etc.

She's feeling so rejected by him. This whole period of not seeing him was initiated by him. Decided his baseball games were more important than Wed night access and she was excluded from their family vacation this year (I mean the whole family, grandma, grandpa, aunt, uncle). First year in her entire life she didn't get that vacation with him. He decided she wasn't "well behaved" enough to go.

What about going to court re: other mom's contempt hearing on Monday?

[HammerDad]

I wouldn't get myself in the middle of another parents problem. Your issues are between him and you. His issues with his other ex are not something I would EVER get myself in the middle of. Only bad things can come of it.

What needs to happen here is daughter needs to learn that sometimes doing the right thing and doing what feels right are two different things. This has dragged on more than long enough. Now it is time to do the right thing.

Also, she needs to be encouraged to speak to her dad about her feelings. Suggest counselling for the two of them as a means of helping rebuild the relationship. It is simply time to find solutions to the problem not dwell on what created the problem.

And yeah, again, I wouldn't get in the middle of ex and their other ex's issues. Simply nothing good can come of it. Work on your kid and try to get this relationship back on track as it is obvious you can tell that not having the relationship is having more a negative impact than even the spotty relationship they had before.

[murphyslaw]

Well I think that this kind of psychological warfare by a grown man on a child is abhorrent.But if you want peace for the child ask her to apologize but when she is in her teens please tell her that real men don't ask for subservience.It would be awful if she wound up in abusive relationships with men because of her controlled relationship with her own father.

As for the court thing...go.You know what he is like you know what he is capable of ,and how he likes to pick on the weak and vulnerable.His lawyer will paint her as an evil so and so, who is alienating the child from her father and his family.Hard to push that if you are sitting in court :-)Is legal aid paying for this crap?

[ONTMOMMA]

Legal Aid isn't paying for my crap. I paid that $23000 in legal fees has gotten me .... well, you see what it has gotten me - diddly squat!

Thanks Murphy! I see it as psychological torment as well. When him and I were together, I described this as "fighting ghosts". Foundless accusations, etc, etc.

His lawyer is as big a d%^& as he is! The lawyer is rude, has no problem making derogitory remarks about me/other mom. At the beginning of this latest court go-round, he made the idiotic mistake of sending other mom's financial disclosure to me - instead of sending his client's. I phoned him, left a message stating his mistake. Other mom was furious!! (We hardly knew each other then).

[DowntroddenDad]

I once had to apologise for something in a business situation for something that I felt no need to apologise for. Yes it stings a little, but better to get it over with sometimes, than to continue a fight. In my case, a senior VP told me I was right, but that the most important thing was to maintain a working relationship, and if an apology would help do that, it was a small price to pay. I did need to have a good working relationship with this other VP, so I did what I was asked. Karma kicked his butt out the door a few weeks later on another issue. Better in this case that the child accept the need to apologise to get past the issue, than to suffer the cruelties. Yes, it isn't right and it isn't fair, but in the end it is the correct course of action.

[Pursuinghappiness]

I agree with the above advice. Hammerdad's point about not getting involved in the litigation sounds like very good advice.

As for apologizing, I'm one of those people that say "I'm sorry" when I bang my own foot in the door (I apologize to the door).

Apologizing isn't about her saying that she did anything wrong...what's she's really doing is saying she's sorry for the situation.

Sorry for how awkward things are...how sorry she is that her parents can't seem to find ways rise above the situation...how sorry she is that her relationship with her dad and his extended family has suffered because of all the nonsense going on.

What you can tell her is that she's being the bigger person. And that she's an amazing kid for being able to do this with her dad. Hopefully, the chain reaction is that he will feel a bit guilty for being a jerk, mellow out a little, and ask his new partner to lighten up on his daughter. (Shame on the paternal grandparents who haven't stepped in to mellow him out too...grandparents shouldn't pick sides with grandchildren...that's tragic).

Its just a lot harder to be mean and unfair to a child that is willing to do anything to have a relationship with her dad. And if he still maintains the nonsense...she will grow up knowing that she tried everything...and you can have some peace in knowing that you did too.

I'm not saying that's a fair position for your daughter but life isn't always fair. And she'll gain a lot of patience, perspective and wisdom from learning methods of dealing with her dad.

I not always true that parents are wiser than children and that parents are always the ones to teach the children life lessons...sometimes its the other way around.

I'm really sorry for the crappy situation...my sympathies to you, your daughter and the other child and mother involved.

I hope you have some other male role models that she can talk/vent to about the situation. It might help her a lot. I wonder if there's also a way that you can make arrangements with the other mother to have playdates so that she could at least see her half-sister.

[ONTMOMMA]

I once had to apologise for something in a business situation for something that I felt no need to apologise for. Yes it stings a little, but better to get it over with sometimes, than to continue a fight. In my case, a senior VP told me I was right, but that the most important thing was to maintain a working relationship, and if an apology would help do that, it was a small price to pay. I did need to have a good working relationship with this other VP, so I did what I was asked. Karma kicked his butt out the door a few weeks later on another issue. Better in this case that the child accept the need to apologise to get past the issue, than to suffer the cruelties. Yes, it isn't right and it isn't fair, but in the end it is the correct course of action.

Yes, but this girl is 10 - not a professional in her 40's. She's a kid that feels blamed for her dad's bad decisions and behaviour. She's got "I must be a horrible person" running through her head already.I get that you have to apologize for things in business situations, but, to apologize for being ignored?!?! I dunno....sometimes I think apologizing is one way of accepting responsibility.....and this isn't hers to accept.

[HammerDad]

As for the court thing...go.You know what he is like you know what he is capable of ,and how he likes to pick on the weak and vulnerable.His lawyer will paint her as an evil so and so, who is alienating the child from her father and his family.Hard to push that if you are sitting in court :-)Is legal aid paying for this crap?

Let the otherside fight their own battles. Getting involved is only going to fuel the fire from the otherside.

If the other ex has a lawyer, let their lawyer do their job.

By making yourself a party to another persons problems will only increase the number of problems you have.

[HammerDad]

Yes, but this girl is 10 - not a professional in her 40's. She's a kid that feels blamed for her dad's bad decisions and behaviour. She's got "I must be a horrible person" running through her head already.I get that you have to apologize for things in business situations, but, to apologize for being ignored?!?! I dunno....sometimes I think apologizing is one way of accepting responsibility.....and this isn't hers to accept.

The girl is 10 and needs to learn that sometimes we suck things up for the greater good.

You seem happy to encourage her defiance and defend it, yet you also see the damage that it has caused. I am not suggesting she did something wrong in anyway, but this has simply gone on enough. Hopefully if she apologizes, dad turns around and says I am sorry too and life moves on.

Do you think it is better that this situation continue? I mean, you posted this thread because of the damage that you've already witnessed and how hurt your kid is? Is it better to prolong that hurt and further damage the child and their relationship with the other parent? If you believe it is better for your kid for this continue, by all means, defend her position......if you don't believe that this situation is best for her, you sit her down and parent her and teach her that sometimes we do things that we may not like because, in the end, it is for the greater good.

[ONTMOMMA]

She's done this before.....she's apologized for ???whatever???, only to be, once again, ignored by him. I guess I'm of two minds here - the definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result) and apologize, get it over with and understand that it's going to happen again and again and again. Through no fault of her own - it's just who he is.
She's "burned". She doesn't understand why the other daughter is better than her, why the other daughter doesn't have the same issues. She also really misses her half-sister. Other mom and I have sorta been forced together due to him. My girl developed a relationship with the little girl - and her counsellor and teachers told me that the relationship was important to her - so I made sure she still sees her sister despite this situation. In fact, she's going there Saturday for a sleep-over. I took my girl to the little one's first birthday party. Dad & family didn't even show up.

[Pursuinghappiness]

I dunno....sometimes I think apologizing is one way of accepting responsibility.....and this isn't hers to accept.

I think if its explained to her properly that this apology is a way of saying "I'm the most mature person in this situation."

When going through a divorce and custody battle, I've learned that you have to keep focused on long-term...not short-term goals. Ultimately, its in the best interest of your daughter to try to have a relationship with her father...or exhaust every method in trying.

Will she have some emotional fallout from doing so?

Yep, life isn't perfect. We go through a lot of tragedies...many of which aren't our fault....which help us form who we become. Its the trauma in life and how we deal with it that makes us the people we are...not the easy stuff.

Your job as a mom is to help her through it. Help her understand why she's doing it. Why it makes her the more mature, more wise, more thoughtful and kind person.

So her dad is a prick? He might come around, he might not. It sucks but she isn't the only kid to have to deal with this stuff...she can get through it with the right kind of help.

Good luck!

[ONTMOMMA]

The girl is 10 and needs to learn that sometimes we suck things up for the greater good.

You seem happy to encourage her defiance and defend it, yet you also see the damage that it has caused. I am not suggesting she did something wrong in anyway, but this has simply gone on enough. Hopefully if she apologizes, dad turns around and says I am sorry too and life moves on.

Do you think it is better that this situation continue? I mean, you posted this thread because of the damage that you've already witnessed and how hurt your kid is? Is it better to prolong that hurt and further damage the child and their relationship with the other parent? If you believe it is better for your kid for this continue, by all means, defend her position......if you don't believe that this situation is best for her, you sit her down and parent her and teach her that sometimes we do things that we may not like because, in the end, it is for the greater good.

He caused the damage, not her. He decided she wasn't "worthy" of vacation, she didn't do anything that would warrant that.

I don't think it's better that it continue, hence the $23000 in legal fees I've paid to no avail. I can't stop him from being an asshole no matter how much she apologizes or how much I pay in legal fees.

If I thought for one single second apologizing would end this situation - I'd drive her there myself. However, history has shown that it's just a means to an end for him (appeasing his wife, making him feel justified). I'd just like my girl off of his merry-go-round. Nothing seems to get better, it only gets worse.

Hence my confliction. Am I only setting her up for further disappointment and heartache down the road.....

[Pursuinghappiness]

He caused the damage, not her. He decided she wasn't "worthy" of vacation, she didn't do anything that would warrant that.

I don't think it's better that it continue, hence the $23000 in legal fees I've paid to no avail. I can't stop him from being an asshole no matter how much she apologizes or how much I pay in legal fees.

If I thought for one single second apologizing would end this situation - I'd drive her there myself. However, history has shown that it's just a means to an end for him (appeasing his wife, making him feel justified). I'd just like my girl off of his merry-go-round. Nothing seems to get better, it only gets worse.

Hence my confliction. Am I only setting her up for further disappointment and heartache down the road.....

Sounds like you've made a decision already.

I hope your daughter has some other positive male role models in her life. And I hope you'll maybe get her some counselling so she can deal with her feelings of rejection before she gets to her teen years. Girls have a lot of trouble with that.

Best wishes to your daughter!