Going Back to School

[salsero12]

Hi:

I'm looking into going back to School. However, I don't know what are the implications that this will have on my Child Support Payments, Section 7 Expenses, visiting schedule, etc.

A little about me:

Have 2 children (10 yr girl and 5 yr boy). I pay about $950/month for both kids. (Yes, I kind of have a good job). Ex works p/t and get $27K/yr. Ex is engaged to be married next summer. I live with my parents to try to save $. I see my kids every other weekend (Frid night to Sunday 7pm).

Right now I work full-time but I have a lot of debt due to legal fees, bills, etc.

I want to back to University and become a Physician Assistant. The program is 2 year long. I will have quick my fulltime job, applied to OSAP again (I'm still paying it from previous degree), not to mention that the program is only offered as full-time for 2 years. This includes going to school during the weekends, holidays, been on-call, etc. Placements are in Rural Areas of Ontario.

1. Do I have to pay CSP even though I'm making $0? OSAP will help with some housing cost (I assume)


Let me know if you need more information.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

With kind regard;

Salsero12

[blinkandimgone]

Yes, you have an obligation to support your children. Returning to school, especially for ANOTHER degree, is a choice.

You will likely be imputed an income equal to what you are earning now, and pay CS based on that.

What school has programs that run all day and night, 7 days a week...??

[Mess]

Drygala v. Pauli, 2002 CanLII 41868 (ON CA)

This is the relevant appeal court decision that is referenced in almost all cases. Your first step should be to read it through carefully a couple of times.

Family Law Act - Child Support Guidelines Section 19. (1)

Imputing income
19. (1) The court may impute such amount of income to a parent or spouse as it considers appropriate in the circumstances, which circumstances include,
(a) the parent or spouse is intentionally under-employed or unemployed, other than where the under-employment or unemployment is required by the needs of any child or by the reasonable educational or health needs of the parent or spouse;

Short answer:

In most cases when you quit your job, your ex may seek to have you imputed an income for support purposes based on your historic full time wage. Basically you keep paying support according to what you were previously paying.

If you go to school, and these are your "reasonable educational needs" meaning that it is not a degree in Canadian Literature, but something that leads to a new career, then your ex may not impute an income.

In the case of Drygali, the parent was not working at all and was not paying a cent of child support while in school. The appeals court found that he should be capable of working about 15 hours a week while he is in school, and imputed the wage according to his previous job. The amount ended up about $12k a year, and he was required to pay support according to that amount.

While in school you would be expected to work part time and have some income. It would be a very good idea for you to plan this out and detail your part time work and income in your application to change child support, as well as detail the lenght of the program, when you expect to graduate, the job you expect to get, and your eventual income level. Include all of this information and suggest that you be imputed a wage of (15 hours a week X your previous hourly rate.)

This will shut down most or all of your ex's expected complaints; they won't have a case.

There is also a lot of case law detailing the responsiblilty of a child of the marriage to contribute to their expenses when the parents are fighting over section 7. A judge will detail how many hours a student should be expected to work during a full-time program. This would be a citable argument to support your own budget.

[salsero12]

This is a degree that is offered by University of Toronto. This degree, just like medical school, imposes times in which a practicum must be fulfilled. Example, been on call, Emergency night shift, med surgical rotation etc.

The program explicitly state that during this period of time (24 months) the student should refrain for working, due mainly to the time required to fulfill "residency-like placement", been on call, etc.

At the end of the program, the starting salary will be a lot greater than what I'm making now, almost at par with that of a MD, however, a lot less.

[wretchedotis]

Drygala v. Pauli, 2002 CanLII 41868 (ON CA)

This is the relevant appeal court decision that is referenced in almost all cases. Your first step should be to read it through carefully a couple of times.

Family Law Act - Child Support Guidelines Section 19. (1)

Short answer:

In most cases when you quit your job, your ex may seek to have you imputed an income for support purposes based on your historic full time wage. Basically you keep paying support according to what you were previously paying.

If you go to school, and these are your "reasonable educational needs" meaning that it is not a degree in Canadian Literature, but something that leads to a new career, then your ex may not impute an income.

In the case of Drygali, the parent was not working at all and was not paying a cent of child support while in school. The appeals court found that he should be capable of working about 15 hours a week while he is in school, and imputed the wage according to his previous job. The amount ended up about $12k a year, and he was required to pay support according to that amount.

While in school you would be expected to work part time and have some income. It would be a very good idea for you to plan this out and detail your part time work and income in your application to change child support, as well as detail the lenght of the program, when you expect to graduate, the job you expect to get, and your eventual income level. Include all of this information and suggest that you be imputed a wage of (15 hours a week X your previous hourly rate.)

This will shut down most or all of your ex's expected complaints; they won't have a case.

There is also a lot of case law detailing the responsiblilty of a child of the marriage to contribute to their expenses when the parents are fighting over section 7. A judge will detail how many hours a student should be expected to work during a full-time program. This would be a citable argument to support your own budget.

Hey! I take exception!
Canadian Lit is a valid educational pursuit, right up there with under-water fire-fighting.
:P

[blinkandimgone]

This is a degree that is offered by University of Toronto. This degree, just like medical school, imposes times in which a practicum must be fulfilled. Example, been on call, Emergency night shift, med surgical rotation etc.

The program explicitly state that during this period of time (24 months) the student should refrain for working, due mainly to the time required to fulfill "residency-like placement", been on call, etc.

At the end of the program, the starting salary will be a lot greater than what I'm making now, almost at par with that of a MD, however, a lot less.

Almost at par but a lot less? What...?

[salsero12]

Reply

The starting salary for this position, after graduation is about $90K/yr. However, there are people that have a Physician Assistant Degree from U of T and/or MacMaster that are making around about $125K/yr.

[wretchedotis]

Just do it.

Sounds like it will put you in a better position, eventually.
Which puts your kids in a better position eventually.

Do what you gotta do to make it work, and deal with whatever CS nonsense comes out of it.

I guess what I'm saying is don't let fear of increased financial responsibility, or short-term hardship prevent you from moving forward in life.

Simple enough, really

[salsero12]

Thank You Wretchedotis for you kind words.

Yes, it will be a 2 year hardship on me, however, I'm willing to go through it so that my kids can have a better position in life, although this means that my ex will get more $$ from me.

Does anyone else have have any further advice and/or suggestions?

Thank you in advance to all of you that have answered this post, as well as those who have read it. I hope that this thread can help other spouses that might be in a similar position in which I'm in at the moment.

With kind regards;

salsero12

[Rioe]

Someone who has a good full time job, lives with their parents and has only EoW access should not have debt. At least, not for long.

Someone with a good full time job and children to support should not go back to school without any serious planning. What would you be doing if you and your ex were still together? Would it be at all feasible to drop your job and go back to school for two years? Could any happily married couple survive a huge household income drop for two years in the hopes of a better income later? And what are the prospects for being hired afterwards?

That said, now you have to think of ways to make it work. It sounds like you have lots of kid-free time, so find a part-time job to help pay down your debt faster, and save up for the two years of school. Make it a plan for a few years down the road, not next year.

As noted, a court is not going to let you just drop your income and pay zero CS. Your kids and obligations don't just stop existing just because you go back to school.

[dad2bandm]

...
Does anyone else have have any further advice and/or suggestions?

Be prepared to keep paying your current child support obligation.
Perhaps, if it's a possible alternative, look into part-time schooling/courses, if that is available in this particular curiculum. That allows you to keep working, and to try and attend school/courses.

[salsero12]

Reply

Hi and thanks for your comment.

Yes, I have looked into getting a part-time job to reduce my debt, however, and correct if I'm wrong, any monies I make extra will have to be claimed as income, increasing my overall income, which means paying more CS?

If this is the case, is not worth it. My ex is all about $$$. She just recently asked why I have not given her the $$ that belongs to her from my pension (were separated before the new pension rules came into effect on Jan 2012). She had a "tantrum" after I told her this.

Any other suggestion Rioe?

dad2bandm, as mentioned earlier, this is a FULL TIME commitment and way that the courses and practicum are scheduled is in the same manner as that of Medical School.

If you go to school, and these are your "reasonable educational needs" meaning that it is not a degree in Canadian Literature, but something that leads to a new career, then your ex may not impute an income.

With regards to the above quote, I will not be able to work part-time during the two years of the program:

Full Time Status
The structure of the program requires that all students be registered in the program on a full-time basis. Attendance at all Residential and Evaluation components of the program and participation in all Distance components are mandatory. Employment while enrolled in the full-time professional degree program is strongly discouraged.

Below is a brief program overview:

Program Overview
The program runs continuously for six semesters (24 months). Short periods of time are spent in Toronto, but otherwise the student may be in their home location during the first year. In year two, the student is participating in clinical activities, with three brief returns to Toronto in the year.

Year 1 (3 semesters) is academically focused
– Completion of 15 courses in total, including 120 hours of longitudinal clinical experience is expected.
– 4 Mandatory Residential Blocks** will occur: For the September start, this means 4 week block in September, a 3 week block in December, and 4 week blocks in April/May and July/August.

Year 2 (3 semesters) is clinically focused
– 40 weeks of supervised direct clinical contact in rural and urban settings.
– Half of the clinical practicum will be assigned in Southern Ontario, half in Northern Ontario. Three Mandatory Residential Blocks will occur. The Residential Blocks for the September 2014 start at to be confirmed.


Any further advise?

[TheBadGuy]

UGLY TRUTH ALERT!

No court will (nor should it) allow you to put your children at a financial disadvantage because you want to take a 2 year sabbatical. By the numbers you quoted for c/s, you already make more than the position you're hoping to gain through your educational adventure.

I'm going to suggest you look in the mirror and face the truth. How about putting your career aspirations on hold until your obligations towards the most important commitments in your life (your children) are fulfilled and you get your personal financial house in order?

[FWB]

UGLY TRUTH ALERT!

oh NO...THIS CAN'T BE GOOD

How about putting your career aspirations on hold until your obligations towards the most important commitments in your life (your children) are fulfilled and you get your personal financial house in order?

nOW nOW....Some will say that is just "crazy talk". I have even seen/heard of a similar stunt where a person tried to quit their job in order to get SS..I MEAN SERIOUSLY

[Rioe]

Yes, I have looked into getting a part-time job to reduce my debt, however, and correct if I'm wrong, any monies I make extra will have to be claimed as income, increasing my overall income, which means paying more CS?

If this is the case, is not worth it. My ex is all about $$$. She just recently asked why I have not given her the $$ that belongs to her from my pension (were separated before the new pension rules came into effect on Jan 2012). She had a "tantrum" after I told her this.

Any other suggestion Rioe?

Any further advise?

Sorry, missed this response way back when.

You have an excellent job already, from the sounds of it. If you really want to change careers, maybe because you absolutely hate your current job, then you have to make it happen without disadvantaging your children. Many many people work at a job they can't stand, because not doing so hurts their children.

To create the luxury of being able to do otherwise, you have to make some sacrifices for it so your children aren't affected.

Make it a long term plan.

Get a part time job with your spare time. Yes, your CS obligation will increase as your income does, but you will still have additional money leftover. Pay off ALL your debt. Why on earth would you want to go into debt for this education program if you haven't even gotten the first OSAP debt paid off?

I still maintain that someone who lives with their parents, presumably with few personal expenses, should not have debt for long.

Once your debt is paid off, keep at it. Put enough money aside so that you can keep paying your CS obligation to your children for two years out of it.

THEN you can quit your jobs and go back to school, knowing your children are looked after.

Good parents put their kids first.

To me, it sounds like you are putting your own desires first. Not even your needs, but your desires. With more than a little resentment at your ex thrown in for good measure. You don't want to earn more income because that would mean paying her more CS?