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50/50 Equal Parenting: The Debate

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  • Originally posted by rockscan View Post
    You can also add that by having the children taken 50% of the time it prevents them from continuing their victim complex as a poor overworked single parent.
    This is true.

    There was a great article that touched on this:

    Quality of relationships with children are compromised not only in cases where a parent feels disenfranchised as a non-residential parent, but also in situations in which a parent is overwhelmed by sole custodial and caregiving responsibility for his or her children.
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ld-attachments
    it goes on to say,
    studies have consistently reported that joint custody parents report significantly less burden and stress in their lives than sole custody/primary residence parents, as sole responsibility for day-to-day attention to the child’s needs is not placed on either the mother or the father, resulting in better quality parent-child relationships
    Interesting studies and read.

    Comment


    • I just get concerned when I talk with young children aged 12-14 and they express frustration and anxiety with the week at Moms and week at Dads regime.

      Sure Mom and Dad are both equal but is it often at the cost to young children feeling " like a nomad" was how one,young lady put it.

      I volunteer with young girls in a recreational situation,and sometimes when we get discussing life and challenges etc these topics come up and most are not happy with the situation and ultimately as they grow older make a choice.

      I also have some girls who are in blended families and they hate them. So I do get the concept that both parent s need to be equal in the law and in the child's life but who,is advocating for the child's rights.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Beachnana View Post
        I just get concerned when I talk with young children aged 12-14 and they express frustration and anxiety with the week at Moms and week at Dads regime.

        Sure Mom and Dad are both equal but is it often at the cost to young children feeling " like a nomad" was how one,young lady put it.

        I volunteer with young girls in a recreational situation,and sometimes when we get discussing life and challenges etc these topics come up and most are not happy with the situation and ultimately as they grow older make a choice.

        I also have some girls who are in blended families and they hate them. So I do get the concept that both parent s need to be equal in the law and in the child's life but who,is advocating for the child's rights.
        There is the argument that children need to have stability. In cases where the custodial parent (usually the mother) has the status quo.

        How do convince the courts that your children would be better off in a shared parenting regime?

        Say your children are distressed and not thriving. How do you say that 50-50 would improve that ? How do you say that 50-50 won't be onterruptive to the regime? What do you say to convince the courts that the children would be better off in a shared regime than every other weekend? How do you prove that it is beat for child when the other parent says it's all about you, your rights. This would be in the case where you're not able to prove any abuse or alienation. Just the mere statement that you want to be an involved parent.

        Btw. Parallel parenting doesn't give children the sense of family because decisions are made unilaterally. Joint custody, decesions are made jointly with effort from both parties.

        I also like to hear about a provision for arbitriation or parenting coordinator in case on conflict.

        I would also like to know what the difference between joint custody with final say to one parent is vs. Sole custody but the right to be consulted and return to court if you disagree with decision on the merit that it's not in the best interests of the child.

        Also in the case of fathers being informed of their rights and pressured/bullied into a sole custody end of week arrangement but after further involvement they wish to be equally involved as they were when they were together. In the case where father was removed as an equal parent and cut off completely by the use of police. What I am trying to get it, is should you get to 50-50 if you didn't do 50-50 following the separation. Is 50-50 at all times the best arrangements for children.

        There is also the discussion of week about vs 2-2-5 2-2-3 and a gradual shared parenting arrangement.



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        • Originally posted by Ange71727 View Post
          So does this mean that dad in this case gets to make decisions on sports related things without consulting mom and mom can decide on anything medical and school related without consulting with dad? Does this type of thing get mandated often in situations with high conflict? (I don't have as much knowledge of cases on Canlii). Just asking in general.


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          Even if you're not mandated to consult with the other parent. Unless you fear for safety or he calls you abusive names in communications, you should have a meaningful consult with the other parent. They are still the child's parent. One parent being granted sole custody doesn't mean that the child only has one parent. The child still has two parents.

          You still want to avoid hiding information. If you change the child's school and don't mention anything to dad and he learns by surprise, that will end you right back in court and you will be ordered to consult with him.



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          • Originally posted by Beachnana View Post
            Sure Mom and Dad are both equal but is it often at the cost to young children feeling " like a nomad" was how one,young lady put it.
            A Nomad is someone with no permanent home, like the member of a tribe that moves from place to place in search of food, or the rock star who spends 365 days a year in tour buses and hotel rooms.https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/nomad

            My child has 2 stable homes as well. She is the happiest child I ever met in my life. She has 2 permanent address, unlike "nomad's" and she feels super lucky to have both. She gets 2 b-days, 2 X-mas, 2 Easters, 2 of everything. She loves the fact that we see her equally because she loves us equally and deserves both of us in her life equally.

            I still very much agree with what these studies had to say:
            The constraints of traditional “access” relationships are well documented; closeness, warmth, and mutual understanding are elusive when parenting within the constraints of thin slices of time. Meaningful relationships are developed and sustained through emotional connectedness, and this is made possible through the emotional stability and security of meaningful (fair and equal) parenting time.
            This is what I see mostly working alongside youth and adolescence. ^^^^

            And the piece on "Attachments" is very strong:

            Attachment bonds are formed through mutual participation in daily routines, including bedtime and waking rituals, transitions to and from school, and extracurricular and recreational activities. There is a direct correlation between quantity of time and quality of parent-child relationships, as high quality relationships between parents and children are not possible without sufficient, routine time to develop and sustain a quality relationship. And children’s adjustment is furthered by primary relationships with both mothers and fathers (Fabricius et al, 2011). For children, primary attachment bonds are not possible within the constraints of “access” or "visitation."
            Strong attachments and bonds are extremely important for healthy development and 2 loving parents sharing time equally are the best recipe, in my opinion. If a child is unhappy or they don't like their step sibling's, I wouldn't consider that the norm per se, I'm sure there are many variables and dynamics at work.

            So I do get the concept that both parents need to be equal in the law and in the child's life but who,is advocating for the child's rights.
            Apparently OCL, but I wouldn't recommend it.

            Children usually get heard around 10-12 years and older, depending on their level of maturity. I could be wrong. It's up to the parents to start advocating more.

            It's extremely healthy across all developmental domains and has shown to improve the emotional health an happiness of the parents as well:

            Quality of parent-child attachments is also largely dependent on the well-being of parents. Parent well-being is furthered with equal or shared parenting, as neither parent is threatened with the loss of his or her children (Bauserman, 2012). The highest rate of depression among adults is among parents who have a dependent child but are unable to maintain a meaningful relationship with that child.
            And we all know .. if the parents are happy, the kids are happier.

            If you can choose a partner to have a child with, and there is no potential risk or harm to the child, and the parent has went great lengths to try and see their child, I think they should have the chance to have an equal relationship.

            (If there are no extenuating circumstances and the best interests tests have been weighed out).
            Last edited by LovingFather32; 01-14-2017, 11:57 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Beachnana View Post
              I just get concerned when I talk with young children aged 12-14 and they express frustration and anxiety with the week at Moms and week at Dads regime.

              Sure Mom and Dad are both equal but is it often at the cost to young children feeling " like a nomad" was how one,young lady put it.

              I volunteer with young girls in a recreational situation,and sometimes when we get discussing life and challenges etc these topics come up and most are not happy with the situation and ultimately as they grow older make a choice.

              I also have some girls who are in blended families and they hate them. So I do get the concept that both parent s need to be equal in the law and in the child's life but who,is advocating for the child's rights.
              This has been my experience too Beach when talking to older kids. They feel like gypsies, with no true home base. I am not sure the double birthdays and celebrations make up for constantly going from one home to another.

              As an adult, I certainly wouldn't want to spend time in two locations.

              Any custody arrangement is hard for kids I think.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                This has been my experience too Beach when talking to older kids. They feel like gypsies, with no true home base. I am not sure the double birthdays and celebrations make up for constantly going from one home to another.

                As an adult, I certainly wouldn't want to spend time in two locations.

                Any custody arrangement is hard for kids I think.

                They will never have a true home base. The parents are separated. They will always have two homes. The only time they would have a true home would be in a birds nest arrangement.

                I'm an every other weekend dad but my home is still communicated to be the child's other home. She may not be here as much as she is at her moms but it is still her home.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                  As an adult, I certainly wouldn't want to spend time in two locations.
                  Lots of adults are very happy spending weekends at the cottage. Lots of adults enjoy living part of the year in a more southerly location.

                  Originally posted by SadAndTired View Post
                  Any custody arrangement is hard for kids I think.
                  I think the major difference is the sense of choice and control about the arrangement. Even a child who enjoys both homes may still feel unhappy about the schedule being dictated to them.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Rioe View Post
                    Lots of adults are very happy spending weekends at the cottage. Lots of adults enjoy living part of the year in a more southerly location.



                    I think the major difference is the sense of choice and control about the arrangement. Even a child who enjoys both homes may still feel unhappy about the schedule being dictated to them.
                    I think there are some great points here.

                    It's definitely true that in some cases kids benefit from having a primary residence, or a "home base". I've read cases where judges felt this scenario was best.

                    However, a majority of cases I read, time spent with parents outweighs any grievances kids have over having 2 homes in terms of the child's overall happiness and adjustment. So many of the young kids are telling their OCL rep's, their other parents, the world that they want more time and unfortunately politics (status quo, etc) and the denial of the other parent stops that from happening.

                    It's mentioned above that older teens complain. But they need not complain. They actually have a choice in the matter.

                    MANY of the kids I deal with in schools and in families homes end up the same as Len's situation:

                    Originally posted by len14 View Post
                    I am mother who has a 50/50 shared parenting plan and it can really work well if you want it to. It is a choice that I have to make every day, but my two kids are happy, healthy emotionally and loved by so many people. I focus on the quality of our time together not the quantity of time.
                    This si not a dad's rights poster. This is not someone who has any kind of agenda here. She's a prime example of how a) 50/50 improved the child's life ; 50/50 brought out the best in both parents. This is the type of stuff I see most.

                    I agree with Goodmom and Rioe. I think it's silly to say that as adults, we don't already spend time in 2 different locations. As Rioe pointed out, we have cottages, etc.


                    Isn't that what the rich and famous do anyways? They have a place on an island, a place in California, a place in the Barbado's. Yea...I could't handle that. lol. If any ODF posters get 2 houses and they feel they can't handle the transitioning, give me a call. I'll take it off your hands. I need a getaway.

                    I also think we need to give our kids more credit.

                    I'll refer back to Goodmom's post:

                    Originally posted by good_mom View Post
                    Every year a child go to school its a change, different teacher, possible friends, classroom and at times schools; from elementary to High school..how can a few extra days with a parent be devastating! Reminder! we pick them to be a parent for those kids. Situations do change, divorce happens and we are no longer in the loop on that parents life, we only get a snip if that...so making a judgement on the little know is not right.

                    Those that mix access with money are putting a price on the kids. Kids need to be able to adapt to changes and positive ones are not going to devastate them.

                    Venting below!
                    I'm an adult should I be devastate that my manager is getting a promotion and moving on to another division OH NO A CHANGE I'm going to be scared for life! Just waiting to start seeing this generation of divorced kids in the work force who will need to be coddled because they cannot adapt!
                    Our kids just arn't as weak and fragile as some assume. I see beautiful, amazing, happily adjusted kids in blended family all around me.

                    Changes in routine are a part of life and in my view, actually helps generalize the children's coping mechanisms to different contexts and better prepares them for the inevitable changes they will encounter throughout life.

                    If Charles Darwin were alive he might argue that these kids will be more emotionally-stable and resilient throughout life due to their practiced and advanced ability to adapt in life (i.e - Won't go in to a deep depression if they get laid off in the future --> huge life change )

                    I agree with GoodMom....give our kids some credit. They won't curl up and die if they have 2 loving residences. The benefits seem to outweigh the negatives....and many of us here are going through it. Posters like S&T arn't in 50/50 situations, but many of us are and are posting about direct experience.

                    As I said before, most of the kids I've spoken with and studies I've read indicate more behavioral issues in sole-custody situations, where one parent's access is cut short.

                    For example:

                    The following data outlines the clear predominance of sole custody awards, and some of the many resulting harmful effects. As the data reveals, this inflicts significant, harmful, long term effects on these children which could, and should, be prevented in thousands of cases, through the enactment of a presumption of equal-parenting laws.DATA & STUDIES supporting the need for equal parenting
                    The studies touch on attachment issues, the child's self concept, sense of security, etc.

                    EMOTIONAL/BEHAVIORAL PROBLEMS ASSOCIATED WITH SOLE CUSTODY

                    The continued involvement of the non-custodial parent in the child's life appears crucial in preventing an intense sense of loss in the child... The importance of the relationship with the non-custodial parent may also have implications for the legal issues of custodial arrangements and visitation. The results of this study indicate that arrangements where both parents are equally involved with the child are optimal. When this type of arrangement is not possible, the child's continued relationship with the non-custodial parent remains essential.
                    Source: Young Adult Children of Divorced Parents: Depression and the Perception of Loss, Rebecca L. Drill, P.h.D., Harvard University. Journal of Divorce, V.10, #1/2, Fall/Winter 1986.DATA & STUDIES supporting the need for equal parenting
                    There was another study that compared children intact families with joint custody and single custody families.

                    Cowan compared 20 joint custody and 20 sole (maternal) custody families. Children in joint custody were rated as better adjusted by their mothers compared with children of sole custody mothers. The children's perceptions in sole custody situations correlated with the amount of time spent with their father! The more time children from sole maternal custody spent with their fathers, the more accepting BOTH parents were perceived to be, and the more well-adjusted were the children.
                    Source: D.B. Cowan, "Mother Custody vs. Joint Custody: Children's Parental Relationship and Adjustment." Doctoral Thesis, 1982. University of Washington. UMI No. 82-18213
                    DATA & STUDIES supporting the need for equal parenting
                    The last study I swear I've read in about 10 different studies, all with different authors. The studies consisted of longitudinal and cross cultural comparisons. The data therefore is very valid and reliable.

                    But as mentioned before, there are many variables to consider. No, 50/50 is not for everybody, but my stance is that it's better for a good majority, based on the caselaw, data and personal observations.
                    Last edited by LovingFather32; 01-15-2017, 10:44 AM.

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                    • Originally posted by LovingFather32 View Post
                      A Nomad is someone with no permanent home, like the member of a tribe that moves from place to place in search of food, or the rock star who spends 365 days a year in tour buses and hotel rooms.https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/nomad

                      My child has 2 stable homes as well. She is the happiest child I ever met in my life. She has 2 permanent address, unlike "nomad's" and she feels super lucky to have both. She gets 2 b-days, 2 X-mas, 2 Easters, 2 of everything. She loves the fact that we see her equally because she loves us equally and deserves both of us in her life equally.

                      I still very much agree with what these studies had to say:

                      This is what I see mostly working alongside youth and adolescence. ^^^^

                      And the piece on "Attachments" is very strong:


                      Strong attachments and bonds are extremely important for healthy development and 2 loving parents sharing time equally are the best recipe, in my opinion. If a child is unhappy or they don't like their step sibling's, I wouldn't consider that the norm per se, I'm sure there are many variables and dynamics at work.


                      Apparently OCL, but I wouldn't recommend it.

                      Children usually get heard around 10-12 years and older, depending on their level of maturity. I could be wrong. It's up to the parents to start advocating more.

                      It's extremely healthy across all developmental domains and has shown to improve the emotional health an happiness of the parents as well:


                      And we all know .. if the parents are happy, the kids are happier.

                      If you can choose a partner to have a child with, and there is no potential risk or harm to the child, and the parent has went great lengths to try and see their child, I think they should have the chance to have an equal relationship.

                      (If there are no extenuating circumstances and the best interests tests have been weighed out).
                      Sorry I still need to figure out how to get part of a post for a quote.

                      So a couple of points LF32. You are probably correct in that your daughter is happy etc in the 2 family home but

                      1. Your child is still very young. I believe that older children often feel they have no choice and that does not sit well with them. As teens your friends are more important than those loving parents. Family play second place to their own needs.

                      2. Admittingly your relationship with your ex started off as hostile and non communicative but now you are all jogging along well. Most of the situations I have experienced with teens is the parents do not speak and the children are either too far from the other home or are not allowed to go to the other home when with one of the parents. A young girl age 12 recently told me she was devistated when she left her best friends jacket she had borrowed at her Moms and as the rules were in place that they are not allowed to go to the other home on a parents time she could not retrieve it till next week. Her friendship with her bestie was put to test and she was very upset. Neither parent would budge. She said as soon as she could she would make a choice to live with only one parent. And having to make this choice hurt.

                      Now her parents only split up 2 years ago so it's all new and she was older so Imthink the effect is worse. When children are under say 3 they grow up in the split environment and 2 Dads and 2 moms and 2 of everything so it's the norm for them. I believe for older children it's not so easy.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Beachnana View Post
                        Sorry I still need to figure out how to get part of a post for a quote.

                        So a couple of points LF32. You are probably correct in that your daughter is happy etc in the 2 family home but

                        1. Your child is still very young. I believe that older children often feel they have no choice and that does not sit well with them. As teens your friends are more important than those loving parents. Family play second place to their own needs.

                        2. Admittingly your relationship with your ex started off as hostile and non communicative but now you are all jogging along well. Most of the situations I have experienced with teens is the parents do not speak and the children are either too far from the other home or are not allowed to go to the other home when with one of the parents. A young girl age 12 recently told me she was devistated when she left her best friends jacket she had borrowed at her Moms and as the rules were in place that they are not allowed to go to the other home on a parents time she could not retrieve it till next week. Her friendship with her bestie was put to test and she was very upset. Neither parent would budge. She said as soon as she could she would make a choice to live with only one parent. And having to make this choice hurt.

                        Now her parents only split up 2 years ago so it's all new and she was older so Imthink the effect is worse. When children are under say 3 they grow up in the split environment and 2 Dads and 2 moms and 2 of everything so it's the norm for them. I believe for older children it's not so easy.
                        You may be correct about the older kids. But they have a choice anyways.

                        You've spoken to kids who are upset about forgetting items. But these things happen in life. Some lose their wallets with all their I.D. She might lose her phone in the future. We have to teach our youth coping mechanisms for when things go wrong. It will make them a stronger person.

                        I agree they're going through a period of social acceptance. Their peers are their life. Most don't spend much time home anyways. Also, they're hormonal, in the middle of a confusing search for identity. fatigued and full of angst. A lot aren't happy with much lol ..except buddies and acceptance.

                        But most significant factor for older children/teen quality of life during a separation or divorce which separates them from the rest is.....They have a voice. They can choose whatever makes them happy.
                        Last edited by LovingFather32; 01-15-2017, 01:26 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by LovingFather32 View Post
                          You may be correct about the older kids. But they have a choice anyways.

                          You've spoken to kids who are upset about forgetting items. But these things happen in life. Some lose their wallets with all their I.D. She might lose her phone in the future. We have to teach our youth coping mechanisms for when things go wrong. It will make them a stronger person.

                          I agree they're going through a period of social acceptance. Their peers are their life. Most don't spend much time home anyways. Also, they're hormonal, in the middle of a confusing search for identity. fatigued and full of angst. A lot aren't happy with much lol ..except buddies and acceptance.

                          But most significant factor for older children/teen quality of life during a separation or divorce which separates them from the rest is.....They have a voice. They can choose whatever makes them happy.


                          It's that "choice" piece that I think can be gut wrenching for older kids. I too have heard many complaints from older kids (I work with them) about not feeling they have a home base or not wanting their time mandated for them, yet don't want to let one of their parents down. Some older kids in divorce situations adapt well but others "change" according to the respective home they're in and it can be difficult for them to find an identity that truly reflects them.
                          Another observation: It seems like many parents struggle with figuring out when (the magic age) to allow kids to determine THEIR best interests as opposed to deciding for them.


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                          • Originally posted by trinton View Post
                            Even if you're not mandated to consult with the other parent. Unless you fear for safety or he calls you abusive names in communications, you should have a meaningful consult with the other parent. They are still the child's parent. One parent being granted sole custody doesn't mean that the child only has one parent. The child still has two parents.

                            You still want to avoid hiding information. If you change the child's school and don't mention anything to dad and he learns by surprise, that will end you right back in court and you will be ordered to consult with him.



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                            But in a high conflict case maybe those parents aren't so good at communication. I could see this leading to even more problems as one person feels cut out of important decision making. Not sure it would be the best arrangement. It could, as you point out, perpetuate the need to return to court.


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                            • It goes against current politically correct "me me me" society to say that kids are greatly hurt and saddened by divorce , no matter how amicable. Liars and demented people that kids are better of after divorce... which 99% of the time is not the case.

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                              • Originally posted by Ange71727 View Post
                                I could see this leading to even more problems as one person feels cut out of important decision making. Not sure it would be the best arrangement. It could, as you point out, perpetuate the need to return to court.
                                It's actually designed precisely for parents who have difficulty communicating. Feeling cut out of half the decision making is better than a child feeling cut out of a parents life in any way.

                                Interesting. The father is seeking a shared parenting regime after 8 years of almost being shared and the mother is saying no. (The children are 8 years old or there around)

                                In this case:
                                http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc...&resultIndex=1

                                [1] Based on her view that she has been the primary caregiver to the three children of the relationship, Ms. P.L.M. asks the court to order that the primary residence of the children be with her and that Mr. D.J.H. have reasonable access to his children.

                                [2] Mr. D.J.H. asks for a shared parenting regime of week on and week off, and for a child support order based on that regime.
                                The following passage from the judge is what I've been attempting to convey.
                                In the circumstances here, because: the children have been faring well in what amounts to a shared parenting situation; both parents have been very much involved in their children’s lives and have demonstrated, over a period of some 8 years, shared parenting values; the parents continue to live relatively close to one another and to the older child’s school, shared parenting is not only viable, especially if access transitions are managed, but preferable to any other type of parenting regime.
                                As with the very first post of this thread, the judge examines 24(4) for violence, abuse or anything of that nature to catch a glimpse of their ability to parent.

                                In the circumstances here, there are no counter-indications to shared or parallel parenting: the fact that there have been threats between the mother’s new boyfriend and the children’s father is not a factor preventing shared parenting - especially where there has been no violence between the parents or between the parents and their children; the fact that the father’s girlfriend would sometimes care for the children is not a counter-indication to shared parenting, especially when the mother herself uses non-parental child care.
                                Doesn't even matter if new partners are squabbling with each other, in fact parallel parenting would solve a lot of that needlessness.

                                I like this judges interpretation of parallel parenting.

                                One type of joint or shared parenting is parallel parenting, the parenting regime developed to deal with situations where parents cannot cooperate in parenting. Parallel parenting is a useful mechanism for at least three reasons.

                                First, it allows the court to do what it does best: make decisions on disputed evidence. A typical term of a parallel parenting regime requires the parents to maintain a record of communications between themselves, thereby allowing the court, rather than one of the parents, to decide which of the parents is unreasonable, controlling, or otherwise preventing effective co-parenting.

                                Second, and most importantly, it gives primacy to the children’s best interests rather than to the dispute between the parents. This regime avoids a destructive result: if the parents don’t get along with one another, the children lose a parenting relationship with one of them and exchange, for the parenting relationship, a very different relationship - that of a baby-sitter. Uniquely in the justice system, custody and access decisions, along with certain other family law decisions, are not permanent: a court does not have to choose permanently between optimism and prudence, but is well placed to monitor the effects of shared parenting and, if it becomes satisfied that the poor relationship between the parents has a negative effect on the children, it can change the parenting regime.

                                Third, it nurtures Parliament’s objective of ensuring, where possible, as much contact as possible between children and their parents.
                                I am of the opinion that it's not the parent's feelings that should be of primary focus, it's about the best interests of the children.

                                As I was mentioning earlier in the thread .. if an ex was good enough to parent at an almost equal regime for 8 years, you'll have a tough time proving how terrible a parent they are now.

                                As the judge puts it,
                                The fact that the parents cooperated actively for nearly 9 years in the raising of their children demonstrates that they have shared parenting values; these values are likely to re-assert themselves once the difficult stage of building new spousal-type relationships has been traversed.
                                Last edited by LovingFather32; 01-15-2017, 09:37 PM. Reason: typo

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