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  • #16
    Your order should allow for more time as time passes. Best you try to find a day shift job as she enters her school age.

    Agreed. We do have a strong bond and im trying to preserve that. Ive never missed any visits or opportunities to spend time with my daughter.

    What has happened up until now. You said you have some supervised access, but who decided it had to be that way? Have you had 3-4 hours supervised weekly since the child was born?

    My ex and I were together for 10 years. 2 weeks after the baby was born she decided she did not want to be with me anymore. At no point did we live together. she had said she will be staying with parents and I could do whatever I wanted. So the time around pregnancy and shortly after I stayed with her parents.

    Immediately, after she decided she didn't want to be with me I moved back with my parents. She set up a schedule of 4 days 3 hours. cut that down to 9. cut that down to 7.5. cut it to 4. than to 3.5. than to 3. all which were supervised. I initiated court around the time my daughter was 1. There was no abuse in the relationship.

    Our first case conference, Short, although the judge made a stern recommendation to her to be more generous with the time and figure out Christmas. Other party requested OCL and previous Lawyer suggested taking it on since ive done nothing wrong .My ex offered unsupervised at that time (not under any court agreement) and requested my parents do not attend the unsupervised at my home (which is my new home I purchased close to my daughter). My parents came over for the Christmas visit which my ex only offer 2.5 hours. She took away the unsupervised after finding out my parents were over for Christmas day.

    unfortunately at no time was there any interim order for any time. The 4 hours just may 6 after OCL recommendations. My current lawyer feels this will show a new status quo and prove that I am a perfectly capable father. My lawyer has just requested I keep a journal of all the visits. We have a speak to may 18 and will likely be booking our settlement at that date.

    Sorry long read. There are many other petty arguments

    Comment


    • #17
      Sounds like petty stuff. Even from OCL. What's her issue with your parents?

      A few hours a week is never going to show that you're a perfectly capable father. Try to propose a schedule that increases your time every week. In 6 months you should be having the child overnight as long as there aren't any issues.

      Comment


      • #18
        They smoke cigarettes and drink. Never drink before or during the visits.

        We are waiting on the OCL report to see the root cause for the decisions. My lawyer did suggest to present a gradual increase plan over a long period of time ie. 2 years. I would like to see an increase in time a lot quicker.

        I'm just having concerns now with this OCL report after I feel ive done nothing wrong and only been a good parent.

        Going to take parenting courses, get counseling, and continuing to be a great father. Need the settlement case to go well

        Comment


        • #19
          To begin, I'm sure you've acquainted yourself with the Family Law bible ..aka the CLRA? https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90c12

          20. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this Part, a child’s parents are equally entitled to custody of the child. 2016, c. 23, s. 2 (1).
          Although I'm sure you know that.

          So the time around pregnancy and shortly after I stayed with her parents.
          Interesting. How involved were you during the pregnancy. One could infer that since you were with "her" parents that you were still involved and helping out in any way you could. She can leave you all she wants .. but half you DNA was in her belly. Pregnancy brings mothers and daughters very close, and if you lived there, you were very much a part of it from the very beginning. Remember that point.

          Immediately, after she decided she didn't want to be with me I moved back with my parents. She set up a schedule of 4 days 3 hours.
          What was your exact response? This is VERY important. Do you have proof of communication where you are adamant about being an equal parent? Perhaps an e-mail stating your discontent over her sudden unilateral decisions?

          If not, you may be found to "acquiescence" the situation. Pay attention to that word. A fancy one for permit or consent. If you just bowed your head and said okay, that's not good. If you stood up and said no way, that's good .. but only if you have proof of it. Judges won't want he said/she said garbage .. only FACTS that they can read.

          This law:

          (4) Where the parents of a child live separate and apart and the child lives with one of them with the consent, implied consent or acquiescence of the other of them, the right of the other to exercise the entitlement of custody and the incidents of custody, but not the entitlement to access, is suspended until a separation agreement or order otherwise provides. R.S.O. 1990, c. C.12, s. 20 (4); 2016, c. 23, s. 2 (3).
          As seen above, even if you did consent or keep quiet when she did this she still can't take away parenting time (access), just decision-making (custody). Thus, whether you consented or not .. you were always still entitled access. She doesn't just get to wear the crown of queen schedule dictator just because she doesn't like you as a partner. Not how it works.
          She set up a schedule of 4 days 3 hours. cut that down to 9. cut that down to 7.5. cut it to 4. than to 3.5. than to 3. all which were supervised.
          Why were you supervised? Perhaps I didn't read thoroughly enough .. there are allegations?

          Either way the onus is on her to prove the allegations and there were no police reports or CAS involvement throughout your relationship, nor in the end .. so she doesn't really have a foot to stand on if there are allegations. She also allowed access in the beginning.

          I'm not surprised that cutting your access whenever her precious heart desired pissed a judge off. Judges HATE this kind of stuff and don't take kindly to discouraging relationships between parents and children for no good reason.

          Be sure to have a "color-coded" schedule with days given vs days denied and use a monthly graph to show the evolution of her killing access to your child. Judges are good readers .. but like most of us..very visual.

          There was no abuse in the relationship.
          That's a very good thing. Thereason it's a very good thing is that you don't meet the criteria for "past conduct" and "violence and abuse", which are:

          Past conduct
          (3) A person’s past conduct shall be considered only,

          (a) in accordance with subsection (4); or

          (b) if the court is satisfied that the conduct is otherwise relevant to the person’s ability to act as a parent. 2006, c. 1, s. 3 (1); 2016, c. 23, s. 7 (2).

          Violence and abuse
          (4) In assessing a person’s ability to act as a parent, the court shall consider whether the person has at any time committed violence or abuse against,

          (a) his or her spouse;

          (b) a parent of the child to whom the application relates;

          (c) a member of the person’s household; or

          (d) any child.
          2006, c. 1, s. 3 (1); 2016, c. 23, s. 7 (2, 3).
          You don't meet the criteria of the above CLRA rule. Your ability to parent is apparently very in tact.

          Our first case conference, Short, although the judge made a stern recommendation to her to be more generous with the time and figure out Christmas.
          Is there any mention of this in the endorsement? Such as Ms____ has 7 days to make an offer of access that is reasonable...etc? This kind of stuff would be great. I'd even get teh Case Conf transcripts and make a nice highlighted exhibit for the judge to read that. I know you're not supposed to but thats the joy of self-representing .. oops. Judges LOVE to read other judges thoughts. I also recall that the LAO lawyer repping my ex used case conference transcripts in a motion .. and the judge just didn't say anything. Something to think about.

          Other party requested OCL and previous Lawyer suggested taking it on since ive done nothing wrong
          Yep .. I made that mistake pal. I thought these folks were out for the kids. Nope, they'er out to project whatever BS they experienced in real life. But then again I'm very biased from my situation. My OCL said that fathers shouldn't bathe their daughters during access, called CAS and suspended access. When CAS found nothing after a thorough investigation and I was to have access, my ex was conveniently on a little vacation in QC at some cottage. It was another 2 weeks I waited until she was off her vacation.

          We agreed because they were supposed to be the child's voice .. but children want both equal parents in the absence of anything that would cause harm. Children deserve a mother and father equally in their life.

          Forget the OCL and their recommendations. Work on getting them thrown out.

          She took away the unsupervised after finding out my parents were over for Christmas day.
          This is all kinds of terrible. Please tell me you were smart enough to have her saying all this on a document of some sort. Otherwise...he said/she said trash.

          My current lawyer feels this will show a new status quo and prove that I am a perfectly capable father. My lawyer has just requested I keep a journal of all the visits.
          Bring your parenting course certificates. Remember, the onus is on THEM to prove that you don't have the ability to properly parent. Bring anything you can to think of to show you're amazing. Christ, I even had "bowel movement schedules" to track her BM's. They were all in my writing and only 2 slots with her. You have to show anything you can.

          My lawyer did suggest to present a gradual increase plan over a long period of time ie. 2 years. I would like to see an increase in time a lot quicker.
          Gradual's not a bad thing and may be necessary given the age of the child. Just focus on the pot of old at teh end of the tunnel./ I was also forced months without seeing my child, then forced 3 hours/week for months. Now I'm 50/50. Just NEVER give up .. that's your child.

          I'm just having concerns now with this OCL report after I feel ive done nothing wrong and only been a good parent.
          Use that report as toilet paper. My judge couldn't throw that thing away fast enough.

          I've read enough caselaw now to know that judges don't just accept these reports. They're thoroughly analyzed and highly scrutinized. Bash the report to pieces and have the judge consider it expunged.

          Going to take parenting courses, get counseling, and continuing to be a great father. Need the settlement case to go well
          You already are a good father. You just have to go an extra mile that most fathers dont to prove yourself. You can do it.
          Last edited by LovingFather32; 05-08-2017, 09:13 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            LovingFather32. Your response has been truly helpful. Especially in this time after the OCL report.

            How involved were you during the pregnancy?
            I went out to all ultrasound appointments, regular appointments, provided during the pregnancy, offered support....ultimately told I was not there for her.

            What was your exact response? This is VERY important. Do you have proof of communication where you are adamant about being an equal parent?

            I may have communication regarding this. Although I did get a lawyer short after and made it clear I wanted to be an active parent. Agreed that conversations will help the situation.

            Why were you supervised?

            My ex has accused me of serious mental health problems that make me a threat to the child. She therefore used this as reasoning why I need to be supervised and stuck to it. I had previous issues with anxiety that were dealt with by mental health professionals and my doctor. OCL has spoken and got documents from both my clinician and doctor stating I am perfectly fine and in good health.

            Is there any mention of this in the endorsement?

            I will go to the courts and ask for the transcripts of the case. The Judge did not create a timeline but left it up to the EX. She did not withhold to it.

            This is all kinds of terrible. Please tell me you were smart enough to have her saying all this on a document of some sort. Otherwise...he said/she said trash.

            I have a long email from her saying she took away time and that my daughter smelled of cigarettes although my parents weren't smoking during the visit.

            I plan on taking as many parenting courses as possible just to ensure it is not an issue.
            I agree that the gradual increase may be a good thing. I will need the judge to find no reason to disagree with my settlement offer at the case. I will need to be fully endorsed regardless my ex will probably still look for trial.

            Unfortunately, she has done a good job of painting a picture of me as she has kept texts from years back to 2014. In the relationship we did share things with each other that are no being used against me. Mostly mental health but she has basically attached pages, and pages. and pages of texts.

            Comment


            • #21
              I have found an email that I shared with my previous lawyer.

              Attached is a text saying that I cant have my daughter at my parents house because they smoke too much. But can have her every other weekend once I get my own home.

              The text was July 2015

              Can this hold any weight?

              Comment


              • #22
                #############
                Last edited by standing on the sidelines; 05-09-2017, 02:30 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Dad1985 View Post
                  I have found an email that I shared with my previous lawyer.

                  Attached is a text saying that I cant have my daughter at my parents house because they smoke too much. But can have her every other weekend once I get my own home.

                  The text was July 2015

                  Can this hold any weight?
                  Do you have anything from you stating that you weer not okay with her decisions? That you wanted to be in your child's life?

                  The smoking thing? he said/she said stuff. She'll say the kid smelled like smoke, which might be a valid reason to not have access there. Can she prove he smelled like smoke? Or.. Can you PROVE the kid didn't smell like smoke? Neither of you can prove anything....so the e-mail means nothing except her controlling nature and cancelling access.

                  Dig deeper!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Dad1985 View Post
                    Attached is a text saying that I cant have my daughter at my parents house because they smoke too much. But can have her every other weekend once I get my own home.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Dad1985 View Post
                      Mother - Recommended Sole custody to mother.
                      This is standard stuff for the OCL to do. It is almost the default. My recommendation would be to counter the OCL report stating parallel parenting.

                      You are advised to take school as your responsibility and give the other parent medical decisions. The reason being is if the child has no long-term disease then medical decisions are rare and never come up.

                      School has daily decisions and often is the lightning rod for disputes regarding habitual residential location. If you are the decision maker about schooling then moving a school is hard (or impossible) of the agreement is written properly. A lot turns on education!

                      Originally posted by Dad1985 View Post
                      Father - recommended 4 hours of unsupervised access to take place on the weekend (for the next 6 months).
                      Again, this is an OCL default. You should have never gone to the OCL. The OCL is inappropriate in 98% of cases. And in 98% of the cases they are involved with they only increase conflict. Very little is resolved with the OCL in my humble opinion. It just creates piles of hearsay evidence that you also have to deal with in litigation.

                      I read in this thread the child in question is 2 years old. In the Toronto Superior Court it would be rare to see an access order like this. I would say the same in the Peel Region as well. Justice Czutrin (Toronto) sets the bar very high for supervised access and non-50-50 of minor children like this. You basically have to be a complete and utter waste of time.

                      A lot of the old (and dismissed) "tender years doctrine" has been eliminated in most of the major family law jurisdictions but, if you are in a go-nowhere court house then you have issues as the modern concepts haven't evolved there. YOu will need a strong book of authorities on <3 year old access schedules.

                      Again, the recommendation for an access schedule should be 2-2-3-3. You should be asking the OCL why it is not appropriate. I would even recommend challenging the report if the clinician did not consider parallel parenting (a modern concept) or 2-2-3 access schedule (a modern concept). If there is no mention then you have a lot of ground to stand on.

                      If... you have about 150,000 in cash on hand to pay for a trial.

                      Originally posted by Dad1985 View Post
                      Parenting courses.
                      Just take one and get the certificate. Don't do a stupid online one. Do a real one. It is a complete waste of time for most people who are not nutjobs. Sort of like prenatal classes...

                      Originally posted by Dad1985 View Post
                      Counsiling to deal with stress of the situation.
                      My recommendation would be to skip the employer supplied stuff. They generally stuff you in with a social worker. I would recommend you find a psychologist (not a psychiatrist) who practices in cognative behaviour therapy and do about 10-16 sessions with them. Generally they cost about 220 an hour for a good one. That is what real therapy or counselling is to the court.

                      Originally posted by Dad1985 View Post
                      The current schedule is 2 hours at a play centre (Supervises) 1 hour at the mall (Supervised.)
                      Who supervises? You should have motioned right up front after the case conference for 2-2-3 access and parallel parenting. Consenting to anything less is NOT recommended. You have a lawyer. Not like you didn't have advice and couldn't have done this.

                      Time is the worst thing for most cases. You have to be proactive from the start. Don't sit on a bad arrangement. Motion to change it.

                      Originally posted by Dad1985 View Post
                      My ex went in line with the OCL recommendations and granted the 4 hours this past sunday. We worked well together to communicate the exchange. She was fed, taken care of, and loved as expected. Although im concerned this is just to show her following of OCL.
                      It is. But, on the other hand. You have additional time with the child. Once many parents get a favourable OCL report they will hold it up like a golden idol and worship it. You are going to need to smash the idol.

                      Originally posted by Dad1985 View Post
                      My laywer was prepared to put an interim access order in place although since the time was granted at will, has decided not to. My lawyer sees this time as oppurtinity to develop new status quo and show im a perfectly competent parent.
                      With an OCL report like that you don't have any other option. A judge will push the matter to trial if you try to change anything now. Don't sit on a bad OCL report hoping things will magically get better. YOu are going to have to be the agent of change in all this. You are going to have a lot of work to do and a lot of $$ to spend if you want to "devistate" the OCL report.

                      I hope you have a very good lawyer.

                      Good Luck!
                      Tayken

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Are the grandparents blowing smoke in the child's face. If not... It is a bullshit argument and you should focus on the more important elements of the dispute that are relevant.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          As I mentioned the "tender years doctrine" and Justice Czutrin in my previous post here is a great clip from Justice Czutrin on this very subject: https://youtu.be/ErF7bYzQmms?t=413 (@ 6:50 in the video if the link doesn't jump you forward)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Again, this is an OCL default. You should have never gone to the OCL. The OCL is inappropriate in 98%

                            Unfortunantly, it was advised by my previous lawyer who i made the mistake of hiring in the first place. Lesson learned.

                            I read in this thread the child in question is 2 years old. In the Toronto Superior Court it would be rare to see an access order like this

                            I should be expecting more than what OCL has recommended?

                            Again, the recommendation for an access schedule should be 2-2-3-3. You should be asking the OCL why it is not appropriate. I would even recommend challenging the report if the clinician did not consider parallel parenting (a modern concept) or 2-2-3 access schedule (a modern concept). If there is no mention then you have a lot of ground to stand on.


                            This is something i will keep in mind once we review the report and see the areas we will be disputing.

                            If... you have about 150,000 in cash on hand to pay for a trial.


                            I do not....My ex continues just to say NO to any kind of consideration to me being a father. Constantly brings up issues and paints a picture of me as someone im not. I would like to see possible changes in the settlement case. Id also like to avoid trail as much as possible. Ive had a hard time dealing with the idea this money could be going to my daughters future.

                            My recommendation would be to skip the employer supplied stuff. They generally stuff you in with a social worker. I would recommend you find a psychologist (not a psychiatrist) who practices in cognative behaviour therapy and do about 10-16 sessions with them. Generally they cost about 220 an hour for a good one. That is what real therapy or counselling is to the court.

                            I have already apporached my work assisstance program and been set up with a counsilor. I will look into your recommendation though. In the past i did see a clinician through ontario helps who would sit down with a psychologist and I. Past issues of anxiety have been dealt with and I have past and recent documents to show good health.

                            Who supervises?

                            MY Ex watches over the whole time. My previous lawyer did not advise during this time. I had made many requests with my lawyer to try to sort out more time. The only thing that came of that was expensive correspondance.

                            With an OCL report like that you don't have any other option. A judge will push the matter to trial if you try to change anything now.


                            Do you beleive trial is unavoidable at this point should my ex and i not come to terms? My lawyer intends on disputing the OCL report when we get it and before settlement

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Pardon my ignorance at times.

                              "tender years doctrine"

                              Will the judge impose this along with other case law mentioed during the settlement case.
                              I do not feel at any time during this fight has any case law been used. My ex has simply kept my daughter away out of pure stubborness.

                              I do not want to come to an agreement in settlement that i do not agree with based on the terms i dont want to go to trial....but realistically i dont want to go to trial. My case seems so petty and is just being extended from my ex.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                This case sounds cut and dry to me.

                                Your ex unilaterally and abruptly cut your child out of your life.

                                You've struggled with anxiety .. but have dealt with it and have documentation to prove it.

                                Your ex makes up stories about cigarette smoke to deny access. NOT COOL!

                                A judge has told her to give more access .. she's not listening.

                                Read up on "The Maximum Contact Principle". Judges rely on this a LOT. You're not addicted to drugs/alcohol .. no history of abuse, etc. Thus, your ability to parent is NOT compromised.

                                Read through this: http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...eration-18320/

                                Your ex will come in preaching "status quo" and how it shouldn't be disturbed. You will reply with .. "actually, it's a MANUFACTURED status quo" that you didn't consent to. She forced it upon you.

                                You dont need conferences my friend....you need a motion. If that doesn't work...a trial.

                                Comment

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