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  • Counselling to work out separation agreement details

    Hi,

    My STBX and I are still working out our separation agreement a year after the split. We've agreed to the major financial points (adult child, so spousal support, no child support) but don't know what to do about the "details." These are things like life insurance (who pays, how much, until when), wills, remarriage, material changes, etc. Rule of 65 applies in our case so these things are important, especially to her if I kick off early.

    We're looking for an impartial person (lawyers are OK but not in a law office environment) with a lot of experience in separation agreements who can inform us, "In this situation, most people do A or B," so that my STBX and I can choose A or B.

    Do such services exist? What are they called? Has anyone used one and can you recommend the process?

    Thanks,

  • #2
    This so cute - mediators are probably what you want...

    Comment


    • #3
      Congratulations. If you have gotten this far, and both have received independent legal advice then I commend you.

      If you have not done this then you are treading on very thin water and it will likely come back to bite you.

      An accountant might be a good resource?

      Comment


      • #4
        Links17 - glad to see that I amused you, unfortunately I wasn't joking. Having spoken to a couple of people who have gone through mediation the feedback gotten has been universally negative. Basically, they had to go back to square one, start filling out forms, yada, yada, yada, as the bill piled up.

        So yes, I know what a mediator is and what they do. But I'm looking for other options.

        Arabian - Thanks for the advice on the accountant. Yes, we've both had independent legal advice. Both of our lawyers invoiced for several thousand dollars and had us fill out more paperwork with a little advice thrown in.

        We're trying to avoid court but would like to end up with an agreement that is both fair and enforceable later.

        Comment


        • #5
          I think accountants (and clergy) are the most under-utilized resources in family law. It really comes down to the almighty dollar in the end so why not get a pro to help? Accountants are significantly less expensive than lawyers and they can help your ex (and yourself) budget and perhaps plan for life's future unforeseen circumstances. Accountants are often expert witness in divorce litigation and often are the ones who sort out the muck after the lawyers are done with things.

          Insofar as life insurance do you have an employee assistance plan at work (can't remember if you are still employed or retired) - if so, try to access that for referrals. Wills - you should go to an estate lawyer to draw one up but you can likely get lots of good free information from an insurance agent.

          Remember that you can dot all yer "eyes" and cross all yer "tees" but there is always a lawyer out there who, for the right amount of money, is willing to try to break the separation/divorce agreement. I know, I've had to defend mine for the past 6 years. Ridiculous waste of money but not a thing you can do about it.

          Comment


          • #6
            We did the same thing with a mediator.. which was actually a couple (he ex-lawyer, she ex-social worker), both understood accounting and we came to a written agreement after a total of about 12 hours work. They advised us to get independent legal advice to sign off the agreement....

            Originally posted by ifonlyihadknown View Post
            Arabian - Thanks for the advice on the accountant. Yes, we've both had independent legal advice. Both of our lawyers invoiced for several thousand dollars and had us fill out more paperwork with a little advice thrown in.
            My lawyer said it was good... suggested a few minor tweaks.. which I declined as I didn't want to "rock the boat" and just get the thing signed off.

            Her lawyer uttered those infamous words... "I can get you a better deal".

            She bit... and thus begun a 3 year long, solid 6 figure legal battle from hell... in which far and away the only "victors" were each of our lawyers.

            I salute what you are trying to do... but do feel the need to point out potential pitfalls.

            All the best...

            Comment


            • #7
              You can use collaborative lawyers if you want. In Alberta at least.

              Collaborative Divorce in Alberta | Collaborative Divorce Alberta Association – CDAA to find all about it.

              The nice thing about collaborative lawyers is that you both have to hire one on each side, and the lawyers sign an agreement that they will avoid litigation and work to achieve an agreement outside of court.

              Meaning, if one of you decides it isn't working and wants to litigate. Both lawyers will quit and you will need to find yourself a new lawyer for court. This prevents conflict of interest and they work in your interest to avoid court as opposed as telling you to go to court (aka more $$$$ for them)

              However, as in my own experience I went to interview one and she told me point blank that it wouldn't work based upon how confrontational/unreasonable my ex was.

              And yes we are in court, and reality is sometimes you need to make a stand to get you want. We will be back in court again in the new year, and the judge had ordered us to go to mediation (using a regular mediator).

              Surprisingly, we were able to iron out the ant hills, but the mountains we will see each other in court. Was it worth it? Sure.

              If you have ironed out the major deal breakers (doesn't happen often here on this board hence everyone's response) and just looking to figure out the the minor details, then I would suggest mediation or collaborative law.

              Comment


              • #8
                I spoke too soon, so my ex today just informed me on the advice of the lawyer that she does not agree to anything that we agreed upon and will have our day in court. LOL...

                Systems work, people don't.

                Do I believe mediation / collaborative law works? For sure, but like school, you're going to learn only if you want to.

                Comment


                • #9
                  My partners ex refused to listen to ANYONE including her lawyer. It went to court where she tried to tell the judge himself where the law was wrong. She still bitches about how wronged she was. Some people never learn because they are too self righteous.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                    My partners ex refused to listen to ANYONE including her lawyer. It went to court where she tried to tell the judge himself where the law was wrong. She still bitches about how wronged she was. Some people never learn because they are too self righteous.
                    It's actually more crisply defined than "self righteous". By the looks of it, most of us here are dealing with something like this (for a summary, read the blog in the following link):

                    http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...87/#post198952

                    Unfortunately, the players in the system have discovered that these types of people are a never-ending source of billable hours... so don't expect any "official" recognition of this in the foreseeable future.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A recent term I learned was the Injustice Collector

                      Sound familar? I remember when I first started seeing my current GF, my ex sent her a list of all the wrongs I did to my ex...*that she perceived*. Then also proceeded to tell my new gf she was ugly, and her whole family is ugly because she talked her on facebook.

                      Characteristics of Injustice Collectors (link is external)
                      1. Injustice collectors are never wrong. How is it possible that they are never wrong? It's simple: They are always right.
                      2. Injustice collectors never apologize. Ever. For anything.
                      3. Injustice collectors truly believe they are morally and ethically superior to others and that others seem incapable of holding themselves to the same high standards as the injustice collector does.
                      4. Injustice collectors make the rules, break the rules and enforce the rules of the family. They are a combination of legislator, police, judge and jury to those they consider their subjects. They forever banish from their kingdom any subject they deem disloyal, and only grant clemency if there is sufficient contrition.
                      5. Injustice collectors never worry about what is wrong with them as their "bad" list grows. Their focus is always on the failings of others.
                      6. Injustice collectors are never troubled by the disparity between their rules for others and their own expectations of themselves. Injustice collectors rationalize their own behavior with great ease and comfort.
                      7. Injustice collectors have an external orientation; the problem always exists in the world, outside of themselves, and in their view, the world would be an acceptable place if their rules and standards were followed at all times.
                      8. Injustice collectors do not have a capacity for remorse or guilt.
                      9. Injustice collectors scoff at the idea of therapy, therapists, self-help books, and other tools used by people who struggle to live with them.
                      10. The phrase "walking on eggshells" describes life with an injustice collector.

                      Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                      My partners ex refused to listen to ANYONE including her lawyer. It went to court where she tried to tell the judge himself where the law was wrong. She still bitches about how wronged she was. Some people never learn because they are too self righteous.
                      Last edited by FirstTimer; 09-09-2015, 01:48 PM.

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                      • #12
                        I hesitate to agree with 9 for my partner. They spend thousands on therapy but it was always to fix him. Whenever a therapist suggested she change or modify her behaviour, they never went back!

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                        • #13
                          I think #9 needs to be reworded. A narcissist/injustice collector loves people to hear their "injustices/wrongs" done to them, and therapy/self help sessions are perfect stages for them to hear themselves talk aloud, however the outcomes have to align to their views or like everything else in life, my way or the highway.


                          Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                          I hesitate to agree with 9 for my partner. They spend thousands on therapy but it was always to fix him. Whenever a therapist suggested she change or modify her behaviour, they never went back!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Much better.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by FirstTimer View Post
                              I think #9 needs to be reworded. A narcissist/injustice collector loves people to hear their "injustices/wrongs" done to them, and therapy/self help sessions are perfect stages for them to hear themselves talk aloud, however the outcomes have to align to their views or like everything else in life, my way or the highway.
                              I am not a psychologist, however from everything I have seen the following appears true:

                              Injustice Collector == High Conflict Person == Narcissistic Personality Disorder

                              I think it's fair to say a good percentage of us are on this forum because we are dealing with one of these creatures.

                              Here's one of many threads:
                              http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...-people-15604/

                              People even write books about this stuff, and here's one that helped me through my nightmare:
                              http://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Prot.../dp/1608820254

                              Given the advanced research and insight into this issue... question becomes why, oh, why, oh why does the legal profession not recognize this disorder/mental illness and deal with it accordingly?

                              As the books and the articles mention... far and away the biggest victims of this type of behavior are the Children... who are exactly the people the legal system is "supposed" to be helping...

                              Comment

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