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  • Stbx has made an offer....

    Stbx has an offer on the table that gives me a slightly higher monthly amount for now but a potentially lower amount later. I am trying to see if there is something I have missed in all of this but am really leaning towards signing. All of the below is offered regardless of how much money I make a year (and can be lowered if stbx lost job or become disabled) but not increased.

    Any thoughts?

    Year 1 and 2 - SS $1000 or so monthly but ex will have no child care expenses. (Ex making $70,000 or so at this time.)

    Year 3 - Ex has graduated and potentially making $200,000 - $450,000 a year. Ex wants to pay another year of $1000 to establish self and pay off debt. MySupportCalculator says $4,500 - $8,000 a month at this income level.

    Year 4 to year 10 - Ex offering to pay $3,000 a month regardless of my income.

    Basically my lawyer has said to take it because when ex begins his practice there is no way to determine what spousal will be actually awarded at. I have a very clearly determined entitlement and one based on a "compensatory claim" (I supported him through med school.) but would a status quo be determined by only getting $1000 for 3 years. He said an increase in SS is not always "dollar for dollar."

    The above is in addition to table child support. It accounts for 10 years of support from a 15 year relationship. I know it sounds like a ton of money for some (and currently I only make $10,000 a year) but I am trying to figure out what is in my best interest. I feel sort of like I am missing something.

    What would you do? Take the sure thing or play a "wait and see game" and try for a larger SS amount once he has his "material change of circumstance"?

    Thanks.......
    Last edited by SadAndTired; 04-10-2013, 08:06 PM.

  • #2
    I don't know much about SS...but I do know about numbers...

    For the first 3 years you are paid $12,000 a year (plus whatever you make)
    The the next 7 you are paid $36,000 (plus whatever you make)

    In total you are looking at $228,000 over 10 years or $28,800 a year... while it may not seem like a lot, this is guaranteed income (and more than min wage)... if you decide to play the waiting game you are gambling and there is no guarantee you will be rewarded what he is offering. Not to mention if you wait it out, you are still (hopefully) looking to better yourself and find employment. If you find a good paying job, you may find your income goes against you.

    To me it seems like your ex is trying to work something out with you and realizes his income will increase when he opens his practice.

    Comment


    • #3
      I am confused. How is it that this amount will potentially go lower later? If he has an accident or something? That is something you cannot control.

      Only you and your lawyer can determine if it is an offer from serious consideration because only you two are privy to the details of the case.

      Comment


      • #4
        Spousal should be based on hos current income, not whatifs. Wait the 3 years so he can argue non entitlement based on you being self supporting for that period of time.

        How the hell so you make under min wage and expect entitlement to spousal? He's offering you a lot more than I would.

        Ss should be determined on his existing 70k and factor on you making at least 18-24k (or whatever full time hours at min. Wage is in your province.)

        Comment


        • #5
          I know it seems like a lot NBDad. I know the risk of posting this information and people responding with disbelief or anger.

          The fact is that stbx has made this offer so that I can continue to work part time and take care of the children. He does not want to pay his proportion of child care while I make minimum wage full time. Our children were really struggling and he sees this as a way to get a better tax break than he would with child care expenses.

          Wait the 3 years so he can argue non entitlement based on you being self supporting for that period of time.
          Yes, I've thought of this.

          Berner, I worked the numbers too. $228,000 is compared to $450,000 if he pays $7,000 a month (which may end up being mid range later) for the last 5 years.

          I am not trying to be greedy. Just trying to make reasonable decisions. It is hard because my kids and I traveled and followed and supported the ex. We gave up everything and sold everything to ensure that he could attend medical school. We moved 9 times in 5 years solely for his schooling. My kids gave up friends they had established and then gave up the new ones, and missed many, many family events.

          Of course we envisioned a comfortable future with ex as a physician. I sort of see it as I invested my time, my income and energies into a business. Except the potential income is in his head as education. Even ex's lawyer has agreed that my entitlement is clear due to the above and a few other factors not listed here.

          Mom23 - Yes, his income would only lower if ex lost job or became disabled. Obviously in those circumstances, he could not be expected to pay any support. I just didn`t want anyone to think it was iron clad or something.
          Last edited by SadAndTired; 04-10-2013, 09:03 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Lousy deal. You must remember that you are taxed on the SS while he gets to claim 100%.

            You CAN determine his income at a later date. All your lawyer has to do is get off his ass and draw up an agreement which specifies the documentation he is to submit yearly.

            If you do sign it ask for a review in 2 year increments will FULL financial disclosure. You're not a dummy. You can see how his practice is going at that time.

            You are correct in looking at the whole thing as a business. You invested in him.

            People who are lower income earners have a hard time comprehending this but it is all simply numbers. Many physicians go on to make several million per year. Others do not. In a sense it is a crap shoot and dependent upon where he practices.

            Comment


            • #7
              Get the numbers worked out (7 - 8k/month) and offer to defer payment (basically you'd be bankrolling him again). Tell your lawyer to sharpen the pencil and look at creative ways he can pay you back partially tax free in the future (revenue property, for ex.).

              Comment


              • #8
                I didn't mind NBDad's reaction Oink. As I replied above, stbx doesn't want me to work full time at minimum wage.

                He doesn't want to pay his portion of child care. He gets a better tax break if he pays me SS directly and then our kids are taken care of by a parent instead of a babysitter.
                Last edited by SadAndTired; 04-10-2013, 10:11 PM.

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                • #9
                  No problem. It is the only "poking" I've had in 18 months. LMAO.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Then you wouldn't want to know about me. It's even worse than Sad and Tired's story. LOL.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by NBDad View Post
                      Spousal should be based on hos current income, not whatifs. Wait the 3 years so he can argue non entitlement based on you being self supporting for that period of time.

                      How the hell so you make under min wage and expect entitlement to spousal? He's offering you a lot more than I would.

                      Ss should be determined on his existing 70k and factor on you making at least 18-24k (or whatever full time hours at min. Wage is in your province.)
                      Dream on. When you put someone through university and that person is now poised to make substantial income your case is most certainly viewed in a different light than that of a simple wage earner. Tons of case law to support her on this one.

                      Smart people who are divorcing soon-to-be-high-income-earners settle for deferred payments, company shares, and frequent financial reviews. If they are fortunate to share children together then a savy move is to ensure substantial child support and other tax-free options are exercised. Traditional monthly spousal support sucks as you don't pay into CPP and it is fully taxable. When you take SS and add it to any low-paying job you are bumped into a higher income bracket and the ex enjoys the tax break.

                      Smart money rarely goes to trial.

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                      • #12
                        /shrug oh I agree smart usually doesn't go to trial. "Smart" is finding an amicable middle ground that you can both live with and keeping your money instead of giving it to lawyers. MY ex is SMRT, which means she drags me to court over every little thing.

                        OP: If it's the stbx's request that you do not work full time (and for the love of God I hope you have that in writing somewhere) then that does change things.

                        He's shooting out an offer, which likely means that's his starting point. YOU need to determine what YOU are comfortable with and go from there. Find out your bottom line, and add 20% for a counter offer.

                        Personally I hate spousal support. The very concept gets abused far too often and it's gotten very very far away from it's intent. IF there is proven entitlement, then by all means, but far too often we see the "spoiled little princess" syndrome, which sticks in my throat.

                        You seem to be the exception, which is a refreshing change.

                        Maybe you could agree to it being reviewed at the 3, 5 and 10 year marks? That way if there is any material change (his anticipated prospects don't pan out, or maybe they do better than expected) there is a clear time frame for it to be analyzed and adjusted accordingly.

                        Child Support should be a no brainer, and with the level of income you are talking about, that alone will be substantial.

                        Also, I would assume there are some assets in the mix, so between CS, the division of assets, and whatever you come up with for spousal, you should be relatively comfortable for a few years anyway.

                        I would highly suggest you look into retraining or upgrading your education during this period of time. Spousal will not last forever, and you want to make sure you are prepared in the event of any issues. (and to be honest, it sets a good example for the kids)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          To add the what was said above... maybe in your counter offer state that because of his high income and the fact you helped him through school, he be responsible for your schooling and upgrading your skills... that way you basically get the best of both worlds... you can get an education (paid for) and still receive the SS he is offering.

                          There are TONS of online courses and I really have not known one that is not offered online somewhere... what exactly are you looking for, if you don't mind me asking? I take a lot of online courses and do a lot of research in this subject, so I may be able to assist you.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by NBDad View Post
                            OP: If it's the stbx's request that you do not work full time (and for the love of God I hope you have that in writing somewhere) then that does change things.
                            Yes, he has put it in writing. I took the first full time job that was offered to me but often got calls at work from the school to come pick up the youngest daughter. It was better for our kids for me to be home more. And of course, when ex started to see the child care costs, he would rather pay me almost the same amount and get a better tax break.

                            Originally posted by NBDad View Post
                            IF there is proven entitlement, then by all means, but far too often we see the "spoiled little princess" syndrome, which sticks in my throat.
                            I actually get this all the time (mostly from women). "He's a doctor! You should 'take him to the cleaners'." It is sad really because regardless of how I have helped and supported him, he has worked really hard to get where he is. Many people only see what I can "get" out of him. I am not trying to bankrupt him, just ensure that my rights are met in a fair way.

                            Originally posted by NBDad View Post
                            You seem to be the exception, which is a refreshing change.
                            Thanks. I really am trying to be fair.

                            Originally posted by NBDad View Post
                            Also, I would assume there are some assets in the mix, so between CS, the division of assets, and whatever you come up with for spousal, you should be relatively comfortable for a few years anyway.
                            Actually, no. No assets at all. We sold everything including our home in order to partially fund his education. So no division of assets as he left me the furniture etc when he left.

                            Originally posted by NBDad View Post
                            I would highly suggest you look into retraining or upgrading your education during this period of time. Spousal will not last forever, and you want to make sure you are prepared in the event of any issues. (and to be honest, it sets a good example for the kids)
                            I do have a college diploma that I can put to use. Because my experience is dated, I have to start at the bottom again but retraining isn't necessary. I actually just got my foot in the door recently so I just need to put in some time to have current references and employment. Regardless, I will likely be making around $35 - $40 Gs at my highest. But I would have had that regardless of my marriage.

                            Thanks for taking the time to answer without attacking. I appreciate it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Berner_Faith View Post
                              To add the what was said above... maybe in your counter offer state that because of his high income and the fact you helped him through school, he be responsible for your schooling and upgrading your skills... that way you basically get the best of both worlds... you can get an education (paid for) and still receive the SS he is offering.

                              There are TONS of online courses and I really have not known one that is not offered online somewhere... what exactly are you looking for, if you don't mind me asking? I take a lot of online courses and do a lot of research in this subject, so I may be able to assist you.
                              Thanks for the offer BF. As I said to NBDad, I have a diploma I can put to good use. I simply have to put a little current experience behind me to get back into the job force. My kids are not small (11 and 8) so I don't mind working. It has just been hard because my youngest has a chronic condition. The school often calls me to come and pick her up when she is unwell.

                              Thanks for the offer. I need to think more about it but may have some questions later.

                              Comment

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