Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

"even if i am the one who wants to be free"

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • "even if i am the one who wants to be free"

    Opened my account here a while back but didn't quite know what to say or where to start. Seems like one way or another, we have the same woes. So, i just wish to convey that i feel content to be here, amongst all of us, kindred spirits...

    First time for me so call me a newbie. Working on first draft of separation agreement (Ontario)...quite overwhelming ~ the form...so i dropped it for a bit and conducted a property inventory room per room, plotted things on an excel sheet :-) and identified which ones i want to keep and which he may want to keep. Some discussions took place on this already so it looks like we won't have a major problem on who gets what...except perhaps that charming cherry dining set...LOL.

    Kidding aside, my first issue deals with CHRONOLOGY: effectively, which one really first ~ like really! We both work for the federal government (hence pension split a separation item) but anticipate the pension calculation to take quite a bit of time in time to be able to include any provisions surrounding it within the separation agreement, BUT to apply for the pension split, we need to complete a separation agreement as a supporting document. So this is a chicken and egg question . Appreciate some input for those who have experienced this.

    My second issue deals with lawyers. Logically i think we need one each to have a fairer representation, but do we, really? If we come to terms with all items in the separation agreement and the only thing a lawyer needs to do is to determine the fairness within the terms we agreed upon under Ontario family law? Can one lawyer effectively look after both our interests? Could save us some $?!? Appreciate some comments here.

    Well, there are a lot of us trying to get a slice of your time in this forum and i don't wanna monopolize your time. So i will end my query here and hope that someone takes notice of my post and lends a helping hand!

    Cheers,
    2bFREE2012

  • #2
    Welcome
    It sounds as though you are not in an acrimonious split. Nice to know that it is possible. As well, it sounds as though both of you have good, secure jobs. Another big plus.

    Any Children? I'm thinking not, since there was no mention.

    Great on both of you that things are agreeable but it is not advisable for one lawyer to deal with both of you. It is always a very good idea to get ILA. You two come to your agreement, he gives his counsel the go ahead after having reviewed it with him/her. And you do the same. THAT should be the end of it. That certainly does put you into the lucky minority of people who separate amicably. Good Luck.

    Comment


    • #3
      What hadenough said... but just a warning, some lawyers like to create conflict to ensure they can hand you a big bill...

      If you and your ex are agreeable to the terms, make sure you go to a lawyer knowing what you want... do not allow them to pick apart your agreement when you guys agree with the terms... when this happens, you will quickly find yourself in a nasty divorce.

      Best of luck!

      Comment


      • #4
        Good point bf. I've just found most lawyers aren't too keen on advising 2 ppl in a split. Forgive me too, as I've been burned sideways to Sunday - so I tend to err on the side of caution. Some days I'd even admit to it being more like paranoia

        Comment


        • #5
          Hey 2befree
          For your pensions you both need to fill out form 2488 from Public Works (PWGSC), I also filled out form 2483 (Stat Dec. of separating).
          You will get a letter that states what the other person is entitled to under the Superannuation Act. I received a reply in the mail 2 weeks after I faxed the forms over.

          Good luck!

          Comment


          • #6
            Appreciation for quick reply/advice!

            Thanks to all of you who responded to my post tonight~already !
            Excellent set of advice. Will pay heed.
            Cheers,
            2bfree2012

            Comment


            • #7
              Welcome, welcome

              Comment


              • #8
                I had to say welcome twice in order to use enough characters to submit

                Comment


                • #9
                  Implications for joint legal&physical custody; principal residence

                  Thanks hadenough. Yes, children: two (ages 20 and 11).

                  To all, I continue to educate myself and this forum is awesome for this, not only in getting specific responses to my specific questions, providing valuable tips in dealing with other questions i may not have YET considered..so is a proactive guide for me, and offering triggers to new questions that i feel i need to address. Is a bottomless pit it seems, but knowledge is power, I appreciate the learning. So, step by step, trek continues...

                  Question #1 concerns custody and principal residence. A lot of materials out there but can't find info on bottom line implications i.e., does having joint legal and physical custody have any TAX or OTHER implications? Like, if our circumstances change later and become acrimonious. How do we provide for shifts in custody arrangements within the separation agreement; do we just draft another later if things change? I understand the issue that concerns many is 'enforcement' so i am trying to risk-manage it by providing for it NOW within the legal agreement. Some proactive clause to allow for changes in our arrangements in case the one we have now is not going to work.

                  Question #2: what about this notion of "principal residence" for the child: any adverse or negative ramifications? One reading material indicate: "there may be an arrangement where there is joint custody of the children, but the children have primary residence with one of the parents." I would like to provide assurance to my soon to be ex that if our kids take up principal residence with me, it will not create any negative implications for him. But i want to write in the kids' principal residence is with ME.

                  Question #3: Related question is still around support but this is for an older child. What to do with the 20 year old in terms of the 'support' clauses within the separation agreement: an article says 'supporting your children is a life-long responsibility, and it doesn't normally end when they turn 18 as many believe. I just want to make sure this is provided for within the document...or am i being too anal about this part?

                  Pointers, please?

                  Cheers,
                  2bFREE2012



                  Originally posted by hadenough View Post
                  Welcome
                  It sounds as though you are not in an acrimonious split. Nice to know that it is possible. As well, it sounds as though both of you have good, secure jobs. Another big plus.

                  Any Children? I'm thinking not, since there was no mention.

                  Great on both of you that things are agreeable but it is not advisable for one lawyer to deal with both of you. It is always a very good idea to get ILA. You two come to your agreement, he gives his counsel the go ahead after having reviewed it with him/her. And you do the same. THAT should be the end of it. That certainly does put you into the lucky minority of people who separate amicably. Good Luck.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Welcome - a couple of answers, in the areas I am familiar with. First of all, you should get a free consultation with a lawyer just to get some practical reactions to your draft agreement. When I did (very early on) I was shocked at how many "illegal" ideas we had agreed to. Get the structure reviewed (SS/CS numbers, years of SS to be paid, custody, equalization, etc) and then negotiate on your own within that range. Unless you do a lot of reading, it's a bit overwhelming at first.
                    Now for the 20 year old, it depends on the situation, living at home, student, working, etc... Divorced parents are on the hook for the first post secondary degree. After that, it's a grey area. You are responsible until the child becomes independent, that is was is meant by "forever" LOL.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It seems to me that the days of "free consultations" w/lawyers (unless personal injury that works on contingency) are over. There's not a free lawyer (consult) out there ANYWHERE in my experience.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Google search for free consultation+lawyer+divorce, for Toronto:
                        toronto free consutation lawyer divorce - Google Search

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          hi there

                          I'm in a similar boat, where stbx and I are amicable and have worked out our own agreement. We have chosen not to involve lawyers....

                          We drafted our own agreement based on a DIY book I found at Staples, and then after reading & researching we amended, add/removed different pieces to make it fit what we needed it to....

                          For us, I signed off on equalization - nothing to equalize, declined even looking at SS (don't need it, don't want it), and we drafted our own CS which came out less then Guidelines amount... when I had posted about this in my intro, some didn't seem to take it too well, and that's fine..... this is the agreement that works for us and that's all that matters. LOL In our situation, I made it crystal clear from the very beginning that in no way and at no time am I out to screw him over, or to bleed him dry of everything. It's not who I am, and that BS just leads to hurting the kids. ((mine are 6 & 3)) To me, this is all about how to make it as "easy" and smooth for the kids as we possibly can, and nothing more than that!!

                          For me, I think the most important thing is that if the two people splitting can keep those open lines of communication, they have a really good shot at the situation not turning into a nightmare..... While I am also in just the beginning phases, I would think that if there were a change in circumstances down the road an amended agreement (showing which sections changed) would suffice if you and him are still amicable. Have it signed & witnessed, and file it....

                          Best wishes & good luck!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                            Opened my account here a while back but didn't quite know what to say or where to start. Seems like one way or another, we have the same woes. So, i just wish to convey that i feel content to be here, amongst all of us, kindred spirits...
                            Welcome to the Forum. Hopefully you will get some guidance from the members. There are some key people I highly recommend you keep top of your list when reading over suggestions:

                            Mess
                            HammerDad
                            NBDad
                            Gary

                            In my humble opinion they all have an excellent perspective on Family Law, separation and divorce. Although at times you will find people here a bit "to the point" always remember that for the most part people are trying to help you.

                            Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                            First time for me so call me a newbie.
                            There is a first time for everything. Unfortunately seperation and divorce isn't one of those "first times" that anyone really wants to be involved in.

                            Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                            Working on first draft of separation agreement (Ontario)...quite overwhelming ~ the form...so i dropped it
                            There are excellent resources out there on how to frame and build a separation agreement. As you have not mentioned children and only property and financial settlement it isn't as complex as some of the other questions you will see posed on the forum.

                            Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                            for a bit and conducted a property inventory room per room, plotted things on an excel sheet :-) and identified which ones i want to keep and which he may want to keep. Some discussions took place on this already so it looks like we won't have a major problem on who gets what...except perhaps that charming cherry dining set...LOL.
                            For the items in dispute one recommendation that is often made by really qualified mediators is to put them on a list and make it a silent auction. You each associate what you think the value of the item is on your list and exchange lists. The highest bidder gets the item. I would rank the items on a scale of 1-10 and depending on the number of items on the list limited to a specific number of 10's allowable, 9's, etc... That way you don't get back a list of all 10s from the other party.

                            Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                            Kidding aside, my first issue deals with CHRONOLOGY: effectively, which one really first ~ like really! We both work for the federal government (hence pension split a separation item) but anticipate the pension calculation to take quite a bit of time in time to be able to include any provisions surrounding it within the separation agreement, BUT to apply for the pension split, we need to complete a separation agreement as a supporting document.
                            New rules apply and you both can execute consents prior to the separation agreement under the new pension reform bill to get a full statement of your pensions. This makes equalizing the pensions much easier.

                            It is even hard to determine the value of each other's pensions as this information is rarely and easily accessible. New rules make it much easier... So long as you agree and sign the consents for each other.

                            Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                            So this is a chicken and egg question . Appreciate some input for those who have experienced this.
                            The equalization of pensions doesn't have to be done right away. You also don't have to have a full separation agreement to seperate. You will need closure on all the equalization for a divorce.

                            Many people have a hard time differentiating between "separation" and "divorce". Separation is two people living separate and apart. This can happen while you both still live in the same house.

                            Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                            My second issue deals with lawyers. Logically i think we need one each to have a fairer representation, but do we, really?
                            Yes. You don't need a lawyer to write the agreement but, each of you should seek independent legal advice on what you come to agreement on so you fully understand what it means.

                            Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                            If we come to terms with all items in the separation agreement and the only thing a lawyer needs to do is to determine the fairness within the terms we agreed upon under Ontario family law?
                            100% correct. The lawyer will provide you something that they reviewed it with you and you are under no undue influence.

                            Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                            Can one lawyer effectively look after both our interests? Could save us some $?!? Appreciate some comments here.
                            250-800 / hour. If you are not dealing with custody and access of children and just financials... I would plan for 2-3 hours a the lawyers time. This should be balanced against how amicable you have been with the other party over reaching the agreement. You don't seem to have any animosity and moving in the right direction so I provided a conservative time frame for my opinion.

                            Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                            Well, there are a lot of us trying to get a slice of your time in this forum and i don't wanna monopolize your time. So i will end my query here and hope that someone takes notice of my post and lends a helping hand!
                            Hope this helps!

                            Good Luck!
                            Tayken

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                              Thanks hadenough. Yes, children: two (ages 20 and 11)...

                              Question #1 concerns custody and principal residence. A lot of materials out there but can't find info on bottom line implications i.e., does having joint legal and physical custody have any TAX or OTHER implications?
                              Custody - Decisions about the children. (Education, emotional and physical health, activities, etc...)

                              Access - How much time either parent gets to spend with their children.

                              Joint Legal Custody: This is where both parents are equally involved in making decisions about the children (custody).

                              As you seem to be getting along with the other parent Joint Legal Custody would be the route to go. Both parents should be equally involved in the major decisions about their children. Today it takes an extreme case to demonstrate that either parent should have sole custody.

                              Access is where the elements of Tax Law lie. If you have any access schedule for your children in the 60% (with one parent) and 40% (with the other parent) the CCBT and deductions should be split.

                              This is where a lot of people get confused in the terminology of divorce.

                              Joint Legal Custody in the model of "Shared Parenting" with joint residency on a 50-50 access schedule.

                              So, this would mean that both parents are working together to make decisions about their children transparently with each other and the children reside with both parents. No one parent should, nor would they in a "Shared" model make a major decision without consulting the other parent first.

                              Joint Residency - a much better term to use. This means that the children in question reside at both parental residences. There shouldn't be a debate about "primary residency". On a 50-50 basis the concept of "primary residency" looses a lot of lustre because the children technically "reside" with both parents.

                              Primary Residency - Generally a term that is used to fight over. The courts and professionals are moving towards the concept of "joint residency" in access schedules that meet the 60-40 threshold.

                              Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                              Like, if our circumstances change later and become acrimonious. How do we provide for shifts in custody arrangements within the separation agreement;
                              This would start to lead you towards:

                              Full Joint Custody in the model of "Parallel Parenting" with joint residency on an 50-50 access schedule.

                              When things become "acrimonious" then more terms to the parenting and what should be disclosed, when and how parents should "get along" is better defined under a parallel parenting model. If you search the board you will find links to parental agreements that are free that overview in detail what a parallel parenting plan entails.

                              Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                              do we just draft another later if things change? I understand the issue that concerns many is 'enforcement' so i am trying to risk-manage it by providing for it NOW within the legal agreement.
                              Don't over "risk manage" the situation. Start with a solid and normal parenting plan and as material changes in circumstances come up you can deal with those. There are a lot of really great books that outline how to write a parenting plan.

                              Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                              Some proactive clause to allow for changes in our arrangements in case the one we have now is not going to work.
                              Predicting the future is hard. Seperation and divorce is about change. Children change and the world changes. Don't fret on the minor details of trying to "manage change". Everyone involved in the matter, especially your children, have to adapt to change. It is a big change for everyone involved.

                              Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                              Question #2: what about this notion of "principal residence" for the child: any adverse or negative ramifications?

                              I would like to provide assurance to my soon to be ex that if our kids take up principal residence with me, it will not create any negative implications for him. But i want to write in the kids' principal residence is with ME.
                              I would recommend using the term above that I sighted of "joint residency". Your son should feel like he has two homes and be as comfortable in both homes as any one single home. Principal residency or primary residency isn't really a major concern until one parent moves out of the school district or entirely out of the court's jurisdiction.

                              Originally posted by 2bFREE2012 View Post
                              Question #3: Related question is still around support but this is for an older child. What to do with the 20 year old in terms of the 'support' clauses within the separation agreement: an article says 'supporting your children is a life-long responsibility, and it doesn't normally end when they turn 18 as many believe. I just want to make sure this is provided for within the document...or am i being too anal about this part?
                              You will have to split any post secondary education on a balance difference of your income. Support is paid but, it breaks out differently for an adult child in post secondary education. The 20 year old will be expected to contribute to his education (loans, work, etc) as well as both parents. The best thing to do about child support for an adult child in school is to have the child support owing by both parents paid directly to the child.

                              Good Luck!
                              Tayken

                              Comment

                              Our Divorce Forums
                              Forums dedicated to helping people all across Canada get through the separation and divorce process, with discussions about legal issues, parenting issues, financial issues and more.
                              Working...
                              X