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  • Holiday schedule

    Im looking for some thoughts and input. Partner and I have been discussing the holidays and schedules and his holiday time with his kids and hes trying to figure out how to approach this.

    Their agreement states monthly access "agreed upon by all parties" i.e. the kids too. Holidays are separate and the agreement states "overrides the regular schedule". The only place it states agreed to by all is regular monthly parenting time. It also states if other opportunities arise...neither shall insist the arrangements set out be adhered to. Its his year to have the kids Dec 23-36. Two years ago he agreed to switch his time because the kids didnt want to miss out on family traditions etc. Last year he found out they didnt do their holiday tradition until the 26th. His oldest is 19 and doesnt have to do anything undesired. His 14 yo is still subject to it. Last year they put up a fight about visiting at all. Hes already sent a request and a second request with via rail seat sale info. The ex bitches about the 14 yo traveling alone and the 19yo told him that the 14 yo doesnt want to travel alone as its "emotionally draining". He gets nothing when he asks the 14 yo himself. And mom has NEVER "made up" time denied as she says it was the kids' decision not hers. Plus, his ex in laws make plans for the whole family for holidays and his ex doesnt consult him on schedules (christmas and summer vaca in particular).

    So, how would you handle this? Email to mom reminding of the agreement terms? Continue to wait for the kids? Email all of them asking? He will more than likely be working the 27th to jan 2 which means 24-26 would be ideal quality time with his kids. Thoughts welcome!

  • #2
    I'd book an all-inclusive for 4, from Dec. 18-26. They'd be there like a fat boy on a smartie.

    Sometimes, I think your partner should not worry so much about out-smarting his ex, and concentrate more on figuring out how to work with the underdeveloped, often times drama filled, boy searching and completely social approval-neediness brains of two teenage girls.
    Start a discussion, not a fire. Post with kindness.

    Comment


    • #3
      If the 14 year old is saying he does want to come but is upset about traveling alone is there any possibility of dad going and picking him up? I know it might be a bit of a hassle but it could show the child that dad really cares about his concerns and wants to make sure that they see each other?

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      • #4
        Mcdreamy he offered one direction tickets. It was still a no. A very hesitant one but still no. "Too dangerous". (Eyeroll)

        Dadx5 they live four+ hours away.

        Our discussion centered on his need for control and understanding he cant control the situation anymore. We'll have a nice holiday regardless of what his kids decide.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Dadx5 View Post
          If the 14 year old is saying he does want to come but is upset about traveling alone is there any possibility of dad going and picking him up? I know it might be a bit of a hassle but it could show the child that dad really cares about his concerns and wants to make sure that they see each other?
          This 14 year old girl (I think?) is frightened of being on the train for four hours by herself. She's at the age where she's getting a LOT of sexual pressure and lectures about being cautious of strangers, etc. She's probably got the mom spearheading this caution of the train too. She's old enough to do it, yes, but young enough to be scared and old enough not to want to tell people she's scared. Being scared for four hours IS emotionally draining.

          I don't understand why the father isn't going to get her and bring her to his place. He doesn't have to drive, he could take the train himself and then accompany her back on the train, teach her how it works, get her comfortable with it, and have a lovely four hours each way of alone father-daughter time, etc. After a few trips, maybe she'll have built up the confidence to do it herself for future visits.

          Him not doing this is sending a message to the daughter that she's not worth the trouble. He may not mean it that way, but she'll perceive it that way.

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          • #6
            It doesnt matter what he does, mom has interfered so much that shes afraid of everything. Remember these are kids who make comments (repeat comments) when he picks them up at their house. "I dont think its safe to go here or there" etc. Even when a family member comes down to visit and brings her its a fight. We tried it in the spring and it was PERFECT except she had an anxiety attack the night before with mom shouting in the background "not my fault, not withholding access". That would upset any kid knowing mom and dad were not happy (dad told her she could do whatever she wanted he didnt want her sick or upset and please dont worry about hurting his feelings if she wasnt comfortable. She ended up coming and having a great time.) He has tried so many different things but it changes every time. This week she asked dad if theres still room for her now that we live together. All this stuff about how shes worried that things will be weird or that theres no room or that I may not want her there. I was really upset about that one this morning since we've spent time together doing stuff and shopping movies crafts baking etc. thats why I wondered if its a case of enforcement of the agreement.

            His kids travel alone to many different places. They do many activities away from mom with no issues. The moment the situation involves dad, theres an issue.

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            • #7
              Holiday schedule

              New update--ex made travel plans for her and the kids for the dates that are his in the agreement. Didn't discuss with him. Didn't check to see if he would give up the time. Just booked it. How did he find out? Kid called to tell him hes ruined her life. This is unreal.

              Clarification! The GRANDPARENTS made the travel plans and they booked it last year changing the days to fall over his time (which has happened every year...always books the dates over the time hes scheduled to have them). Without consultation, without discussion, without his input. And because ex didnt make the reservations, her hands are clean and she "told [kid] she had to spend time with dad over the holidays" but of course because mom signed an agreement to have her be with him this year, that statement was more than likely followed by "we'll see you when you get back". Come on, what can dad offer in return? He was good though and expressed to her that he wants to make traditions with her and spend time with her and be a part of her life but he wont force her to do anything she doesnt want to do she has to decide what role she wants him to play in her life.

              This whole thing is bullshit. He keeps getting screwed over when it comes to his kids. Kid told him a bunch of stuff "mom said" that isnt true and also what shes doing to breach several aspects of the agreement. Its just not fair. I feel so bad for him. "These arent my kids. I dont know who they are anymore."
              Last edited by rockscan; 11-08-2014, 10:17 PM.

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              • #8
                I need some info. I agreed to do some research while partner is at a job interview. Hes looking at all options from "lay down and take it like a man" to court. But he wants all the details on what is involved. Ive been looking through canlii and google and these forums.

                When he spoke with the 14 yo he was told she would see him any days but the days he is given in the agreement. 24 hours after the call he emailed the ex asking for a response on dates and if she wasnt going to adhere to the agreement, he wanted make up dates. He needs to make his holiday plans and he wanted info. First he got a response from his oldest stating she had seen the email and she didnt like the tone and was pissed at him (the tone argument is bull, the email was emotionless and polite asking for make up time). Then he got the response from the ex where she said she doesnt intend to follow the agreement for two reasons: her family (extended, not her and kids) traditions predate the divorce and they will not be inconvenienced for his feelings and he doesnt adhere to the agreement so she isnt either. Now, she uses that argument a lot for a clause that could never be adhered to because she refuses access. He tried after the divorce to adhere to it but since it involved outside services, no one would work with him without a set schedule. He has told her that but deaf ears and all. His response to this email was to remind her denial of access is punishable and hes waiting on access dates.

                (Before you ask, he WILL drive to get kid and bring her home.)

                Further details: hes had to seek help from a lawyer twice before to enforce access (once on another holiday) and the threat of contempt made her comply. Her new tack is to involve the kids. The 14 yo has now been privy to divorce info and is slowly being alienated as a result.

                My questions:

                1. If he incurs extra costs to make up the access time hes entitled to, is she responsible for the cost? In the spring he lost $200 on train tickets when she interfered and kids didnt come. He doesnt want to book travel or other entertainment plans knowing he'll lose money.

                2. What is involved with contempt? Costs to do it, what happens at the appearance? How does it end if she agrees to make up time before appearing? Is there a site with step by step instructions and info?

                Hes spent the last two days trying to reason out stuff. Heavy action means his kids hate him. No action just keeps allowing her to walk all over him. He also knows that the more he sits back and lets his kids "figure it out" the more likely it is theyll just stop including him in their lives. He was pretty strong in his response telling her shes more than welcome to take him to court if she feels his actions on the SA are so bad. His lawyer has already advised him that he can take action but there will be an emotional cost. His reasons for it are that he doesnt want them to one day tell him he didnt fight for them. And also that hes tired of her manipulating the agreement to suit her needs and involving the kids and getting them upset (which is another clause in the SA she refuses to adhere to). Ive also found cases on canlii where the custodial parent was reprimanded for the alienation and refusal to facilitate access with teens. In one case the judges decision said that age makes no difference, the pattern of behaviour leading up to the age showed an unwillingness to help the relationship.

                Any help would be appreciated. Hes not full tilt on legal action, he just wants to weigh all his options especially since the wording in her email would speak to bad faith on the SA.

                Comment


                • #9
                  It has to be very disheartening and frustrating to want a solid relationship with his children and be met with such hostility by his ex and both the children.

                  But these are not little children and although they are obviously being manipulated by the Mother I would think it's time to communicate with the 2 girls. Something along the lines of " i love you and want you in my life etc etc. I would like to make some arrangments for you to spend time with me and these are the dates I am suggesting and these are the details of the visit. Let me know if you are coming. Make your decision and thats the end of it. If They say no then walk away and tell them when they are ready you will be there for them. It seems he is begging for a relationship amd they are just yanking his chain. I Think at this,point " tough love" is in order. I am here the rest is up to the 2 girls. Forcing them to visit according to an agreement will only end in tears and further fuel the hate Mom has instilled in them. Sad as it may be it might be time to walk away for a while and let them figure out what they want. Tragic as it may be for everyone. An agreement cannot force " love"

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                  • #10
                    We discussed that too. Much of Sunday he spent alone in tears because he didnt want me to see his misery. Over the last year he has tried working with the kids on visits but then theres push back from mom saying as per the agreement he has to work with her. No matter what he does hes doomed to fail. She has to drive them places and she pulls the "well they didnt tell me you were coming so I made other plans" bs. I think this situation may finally show him that he cant keep fighting a losing battle. Reading her arguments against following the agreement and not caring about his feelings angered me more than him. Whenever I see what she thinks or hear what poison has been fed to the kids, it makes me realize why they divorced. Doesnt explain how he made it through 20 years with her. I need to figure out how I help him through this emotionally. We agreed no matter what their decision we would have a good holiday and start our own traditions. Year one is always the hardest right?

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                    • #11
                      You can't force the kids to want to spend time with him. By the sounds of things, alienation has taken place already.

                      I'd let the kids come to him. If they don't a relationship with their father at this point in their life, and would prefer him to merely be a cheque book then I guess that's what they want. I agree to only relate directly with the kids from now on.

                      I think you should definitely set down your boundaries. He should extend an offer for an activity/visit but they have to commit to it by a certain date. After that date he does something else. Make no exceptions to this even though it will be difficult. Sounds like these girls need to get a taste of reality and learn to be accountable for their own actions.

                      He has dates that they are welcome to come. If they do not accept his offer then make it very clear that you will be going away or doing other activities. This can be done in a friendly manner with a "perhaps we can arrange something at Spring break or Easter."

                      Sounds like loving father is a "loving doormat" right now.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yes this is still going on. Yes this is still ridiculous. Yes I am not following my own advice about feeding the drama. Yes this is a little ranty.

                        I really dont understand the ex's arguments. She talks in circles and makes no sense. Now she says she didnt have plans for his dates and that it was kids choice to call him and talk to him. She fails to get that BEFORE her parents went and made any plans, she should have talked to him about it. How hard is a simple "hey my parents want to do this on these dates can we work things out so we both get to spend time with the kids?" But no, she went and made plans, when he emailed to figure out dates she showed the kids, they flipped out on him and he didnt get anything concrete. Then the ex pulls a "im not denying access and i never have". Semantics. Always with her. Now hes told "the kids are still deciding on these dates, Ill let you know." When? Two weeks before? When the seats are all sold? The dates theyre looking at he'll be working so he cant drive to get them and he cant take them off. He'll lose his job. Plus theyll be tired, miserable, hungover etc. then theyll be left with me and mom has them convinced Im stealing their dad away from them (no really, that has been an ongoing disagreement). Neither of them are speaking to him. It will be a trip to get presents and then go back to ignoring him until the next birthday.

                        Since the ex filed with FRO she has voluntarily spoken to him once. In eight months. No updates on the kids and their health and well being. If he hadnt asked about the holidays, he would have been told in December they werent coming. Shes right she cant force them to visit but constantly impeding or interfering has an impact! No matter what he does he gets burned and then the kids get mad, dont want to see or talk to him, and mom says "this isnt my fault, therapy would have fixed this". NO! Doing your job and keeping the kids out of it would have fixed this!!!

                        This is such bs. My partner will take these scraps, kill himself to make it fabulous, theyll start fights and be miserable when he ignores it, then it will be "we dont want to see/speak to you for a while". He asked me once how I felt when my dad stopped trying and buying gifts. I told him at the time it was a relief because I didnt have to deal with him but now I realize I was a bitch and didnt deserve anything.

                        I hate this part. I love this man and would do anything for him or to protect him but this situation I cant even find the words to comfort him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We've got a respond or not situation...(Ill be glad when the holidays are over).

                          Recall the holiday issue. Dad expressed his desire to exercise his access as outlined in the agreement, mom involved kids, mom agreed to vacation with kids without consulting dad, dad asked for alternate dates.

                          It evolved into a bit of a war of words. Mom said first her family doesnt accommodate him because hes not family, then that they would but she didnt ask them, then that kids didnt want to see him. She involved the kids and he told the oldest that others made it difficult by making decisions for him before he was consulted. Last he had heard the kids were looking at dates but mom would let him know. He never heard anything. Today he gets an email saying SHE never heard from HIM. Followed by a bunch of internet crap about what if a child doesnt want to see the other parent.

                          How do you respond to that? Hes tried repeatedly to talk to the kids and theyve ignored every attempt. Mom keeps sending him bs emails about not forcing the kids to do anything. Hes been waiting for someone to tell him what is going on and now he gets this saying hes to blame for the problem!

                          Thoughts?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Sounds like classic parental alienation. From what I've read on CanLII when this happens when there are teenage children the judge often orders mandatory time with the alienated parent (no contact from other parent for some time) as well as mandatory counselling. If the parent who is alienating doesn't cooperate then custody is changed up. The alienation is deliberate and the intervening psychologist usually provides proof by way of providing testimony of child making identical statements that the alienating parent makes about the other parent (as one example).

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                            • #15
                              From the kids perspective they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Also being kids they will naturally want to take the easiest route to have peace and quiet! So, they side with Mom who could potentially make their live's miserable - this time of year especially ... The best way to comfort your spouse is to remind him that his children will grow up and may come around in time.
                              Dad has his rights and the children aren't supposed to be the ones deciding about access - mom is enabling them by discouraging the relationship.

                              Comment

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