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  • Stock Equity

    As previously mentioned, I've discovered that my ex has not disclosed all marital assets. One of the things he didn't disclose was a trading account (he may have more than one). I have a question about whether the equalization formula is the same for this type of asset.

    The argument that I'm expecting is that my ex will try to say that since he owned certain stock prior to marriage that any equity gain in that stock is not subject to equalization.

    The second argument that I'm expecting him to make is that if he used the principal or profit from pre-marital owned stock to purchase another stock that that stock is also not subject to equalization.

    I would imagine that his argument isn't going to fly...but I didn't know if this type of asset was handled differently from any other type of asset that increases in value over the valuation dates for marriage.

    Can any experienced posters help me with this?

  • #2
    I had to include mine in our disclosure. The value for disclosure was based upon the value at time of marriage, to time of separation. So the increase was counted as an asset gain during marriage.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you MayMay.

      So basically its handled the same way as any other marital asset. Good to know.

      Comment


      • #4
        There are exceptions:

        If the origin of the money was from an inheritance then the account would be excluded property.

        Also, if the origin of the money was from an insurance settlement, it would be excluded.

        Having said that, even if that's the case, he should have listed the account on the forms as excluded property. the onus is on him to show that it's excluded property.

        He could conceivably have some kind of argument that he holds the account in trust for someone else....again, he would have to prove this.

        Failing those arguments, if he had the account prior to marriage the gains would be subject to equalization.

        If the account was opened during the marriage, and it was funded from savings/earnings during the marriage, then the whole account is an asset and is equalized.

        Failing to disclose the account will not please the judge.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thank you.

          None of those excluded scenarios are applicable.

          To date: After 2.5 years pursuing disclosure including undertakings and 3 motions...to date there are still the following non-disclosures (these are just the ones I've found based on his partial documents):

          1. An owned business
          2. At least one large trading account...very possibly more than one
          3. Another RRSP
          4. An owned LLC early in marriage

          The SC judge asked him last Friday directly to his face whether or not there were any further disclosures and he said "no"...knowing we're going to trial in a month.

          Frankly, if anyone has earned having his ass handed to him in family law court...its my ex. Seriously, even I'm in shock at the depth of his deception...and I have a feeling that I've only uncovered the tip of the iceberg.

          Comment


          • #6
            I hear you, PH. Yesterday at the CC, my stbx continued to lie and say that the household assets were valued at an insanely high rate, 10x the amount of the professional appraisers' value. He's still not forthcoming on his financial statements. So many other issues...it just seems like he wants to confuse and generate even more hostility than he has already.

            Sounds like your ex and mine would be great friends. My lawyer says we either roll over or go to trial. It looks like it will be the latter, unfortunately.

            All the best. I will be reading your posts with vicarious interest and pleasure.

            Comment


            • #7
              He's still not forthcoming on his financial statements. So many other issues...it just seems like he wants to confuse and generate even more hostility than he has already.
              I think what I'm most amazed at is how much tolerance and latitude the court hasn't given my ex to-date. And how much money that latitude has cost me in the process.

              He shows complete disdain for the court system and the court orders that we already have in place. He was literally told to follow the custody agreement on Friday by the judge for the 2nd time and continues this week violate a major clause of it.

              He ignores all the rules of disclosure. He thinks he can decide that things he doesn't want to put on his asset list aren't "marital assets" because he thinks they belong only to him since he hid them away during marriage.

              And when his behavior is called into question in a court room setting, he gets beligerent, rude and disrespectful. If he shows up, he's often late.

              The result has been my having to spend a lot of money on my own legal fees because my lawyer is forced to handle the nonsensical document dump he keeps doing in a vain attempt to mislead the court.

              Throughout this whole process, I've just wanted it over in the most peaceful way possible...to not have to be forced into a trial. But now, I can honestly tell you that a trial is starting to look extremely attractive to me. I want his actions to finally catch up to him. I want him to recognize that his greed and unreasonable behavior actually ensured his demise. And I want it to be on public record what a deceitful manipulator he is.

              Its almost certainly unavoidable anyway. There is no way that he's going to disclose his assets.

              His next step is probably to try to get a trial adjournment so he can stall again.

              By the way: Thank you Caranna and best wishes to you in trying to get your case finalized. I know how stressful and tiring it is.

              Comment


              • #8
                You can ask the judge to order a forensic audit at the expense of your ex. Given his lack of disclosure, it's a reasonable request.

                That said, it is a fairly expensive undertaking. You have to decide if it's worth it, at the end of the day it's your money also he may suddenly be more for forthcoming if faced with the possibility of such an audit.

                You may get the same results from a simple letter from your lawyer requesting it.

                One thing I would say though. It's easy to imagine that there is all kinds of hidden money. When you see all the earnings over a number of years it seems like so much money, that there must be more hidden somewhere. Often, there isn't.

                Good luck.

                Comment


                • #9
                  One thing I would say though. It's easy to imagine that there is all kinds of hidden money. When you see all the earnings over a number of years it seems like so much money, that there must be more hidden somewhere. Often, there isn't.
                  I can guarantee you that there's a lot more money. The contributions to the one RRSP that he didn't list is over 20k a year.

                  He's trading over 100k in stocks out of the trading account that isn't disclosed. The capital gains are listed on the worksheet in his tax return.

                  What happened was that my ex is on his 3rd lawyer. Lawyer #2 was the one who was around through all the disclosure motions we had and when my ex basically went nuts on him (this lawyer wiped his entire bill on the condition that he basically stays away from him), the lawyer sent all the disclosures he had to-date to my lawyer's office. Including the ones he didn't have time to parse.

                  There's also no doubt that he bought into a business. He pulled off sheets from his tax return but forgot the sheets where he listed his deductions for his vehicle...gas, maintenance and border fees.

                  You cannot claim this under CRA rules unless you have a legitimate business expense.

                  In the years that I have his returns for...there is about 500k in stock equity that was made and transferred to ??? And that's the years that I have...there are about 6 years of missing returns.

                  There's a reason that my ex is fighting so hard to not disclose the accounts and account numbers and is only sending over certain pages of his tax returns.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    PH:

                    Isn't it more important that you make peace and move on with your life and take responsibility for yourself going forward?

                    Why are you pushing so hard to milk your ex for everything he's worth?

                    Your motivations for pushing for trial sound purely emotional and vindictive and will do nothing but harm you and your family in the long run. You will NEVER find peace or satisfaction in going to court for those reasons. It's much more likely you or your ex will simply declare bankruptcy by the time its over and no one will have any assets left for their own lives or the children's future.

                    Try to avoid getting so caught up in the emotions of "revenge". The goal in this process is for you to be separate and apart...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      FFF,

                      I don't read it that way.

                      I don't think she is trying to drive him into bankruptcy, I think she is trying to get a fair equalization from someone who is clearly hiding assets. Whether or not you agree with the way the laws are written, trying to break the law does not make someone a hero in my eyes. She isn't trying to take what he came into the marriage with, just what she is legally entitled to. If he came into the marriage with significant investment assets, and it looks like he did, and those investments made money, then she is asking for her share in the gain, but he retains the principle.

                      Let me ask you, if they were still married, and those investments lost money, would you not have expected her to support him?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Why are you pushing so hard to milk your ex for everything he's worth?
                        lol. I made him an offer to settle 3 weeks ago that was probably less than a 1/4 what he's probably going to end up having to pay me.

                        His reply was not only a decline...but had his lawyer come back and tell me that I owed HIM money by falsifying his 5th financial statement. In doing so, he tried to add in an account that he hadn't disclosed to the marriage valuation date and removed it at separation thinking no one would catch it. The judge did within the first 5 minutes of our SC when they saw the brief. That's how he got caught.

                        After the SC, I finally got to see the entire set of documents that had been dumped on my lawyer (by the way, I have to pay for the preparation of those documents...it will probably cost me 1k in legal fees). And that's when I discovered all of the other stuff.

                        Now despite trying to get this thing over with...I'm over 3 years in...and a month to trial and he still hasn't disclosed. No one in their right mind would settle without understanding what the numbers actually are. And he will NOT comply with simple disclosure. I did it when I was asked to, in full. I have complied with the entire process that was entirely driven by him and his last male-rights attorney.

                        Your motivations for pushing for trial sound purely emotional and vindictive and will do nothing but harm you and your family in the long run.
                        You clearly don't know me very well.

                        I asked for a mediated divorce. In doing so, my ex would have never have had to reveal his secret stash of money embezzled out of our marital accounts. He filed for divorce.

                        In addition, he filed for sole custody, exclusive possession of the marital home, unequal distributions of the assets he did disclose and literally threatened me with everything in the book.

                        My legal fees are now in the 60k range...and they were not driven by me. In addition, I paid thousands for a custody evaluation which took a year of my life. It was extremely stressful.

                        Try to avoid getting so caught up in the emotions of "revenge". The goal in this process is for you to be separate and apart...
                        This has zero to do with revenge on my part. I'm happily in another relationship.

                        It has to do with a fair and equitable split of our marital assets which I am more than entitled to after a 21 year year relationship.

                        My ex is lying...period. And I already made one settlement offer based on believing those lies and that he had disclosed his assets. He declined that offer at his own peril.

                        My ex has one month to disclose his financials and make me an offer to settle. I assure you that if he makes me a reasonable offer...I will take it. If he continues along the path he's been taking, we're headed to trial and the outcome is unlikely to be favorable for him.

                        Karma can be a bitch.
                        Last edited by Pursuinghappiness; 06-04-2013, 11:47 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Let me ask you, if they were still married, and those investments lost money, would you not have expected her to support him?
                          Downtrodden:

                          He definitely listed all the debts...which I paid for my half upon sale of the marital home. I had zero issue with that.

                          He also asked at that time for his funds to be released from trust, although he owed me equalization funds, so that he could put a cash downpayment on his new home. I signed that as soon as I was asked to. Although he tried hard to ensure that I was homeless, I did not respond in-kind...I allowed the funds to be released.

                          What I didn't mention is that I was with my ex 9 years BEFORE marriage. And during that time, I paid all the bills on the home we owned while he was able to "save for our retirement" ..or so he told me. He dumped most of his money into various stocks and funds and I trusted him. There's no doubt he's good with money. I'm am not eligible for any equalization for those funds...nor have I tried to pursue them. I've only asked for equalization based on our date of marriage.

                          He then told me that during the large crash in the 2000s that he lost a ton of money...also which I believed.

                          What actually happened is that he was funnelling money out of our marital assets into his own stash. He kept an operating budget for our home and never, ever borrowed out of that stash to help with anything we might have needed in our marriage. Including our oldest child's tuition or the new home we bought...we got a bridge loan for that and I worked hard to pay for those things. My mother babysat while I worked full-time.

                          Since he's refused the offer I've made..which was based on a fabricated disclosure...he's basically put the nails in his own coffin. I certainly didn't do it. He refused initial mediation...stalled every legal proceeding we've had...changed lawyers 3 times...pushed for sole custody by trashing my name everywhere he went to anyone that would listen...and even now, when he's already getting indication that he's in trouble...refused a very very fair settlement offer. All costing us extraordinary legal fees to-date.

                          He continues to ignore terms of the the custody/access agreement and to be hostile.

                          At this point, I am a month to a trial that my ex has pushed to with every fiber of his being. I'm simply going to comply with his wishes. And I'm going to be very, very well prepared when I do it.
                          Last edited by Pursuinghappiness; 06-04-2013, 11:49 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            By the way, this weekend my bf told me an interesting story about a species of monkey in South America.

                            The natives in the region are found of eating this particular monkey so to catch them, here's what they do...

                            They get a cardboard box and inside they put a handful of treats that the monkey likes...they cut a hole in the box just large enough for the monkey to get his hand through and grab the treats but not large enough for him to pull the treats back out.

                            This breed of monkey is so greedy that it is literally incapable of simply dropping the treats, pulling its arm out of the hole and running away when humans approach.

                            Instead it will keep trying to get the treats in vain...until its caught, cooked and eaten.

                            As Tayken said...sometimes greed makes you stupid.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by FightingForFamily View Post
                              PH:

                              Isn't it more important that you make peace and move on with your life and take responsibility for yourself going forward?

                              Why are you pushing so hard to milk your ex for everything he's worth?

                              Your motivations for pushing for trial sound purely emotional and vindictive and will do nothing but harm you and your family in the long run. You will NEVER find peace or satisfaction in going to court for those reasons. It's much more likely you or your ex will simply declare bankruptcy by the time its over and no one will have any assets left for their own lives or the children's future.

                              Try to avoid getting so caught up in the emotions of "revenge". The goal in this process is for you to be separate and apart...

                              Kind of my thoughts as well. Is it worth the 50% interest made on some stocks while you were married all the while emptying your pockets and fill your lawyers pockets at the same time? Not to mention your mental and physical health and the toll it will take?

                              Food for thought.

                              Comment

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