Please explain extra-ordinary extracurricular URGENT

[Tandem80]

Taken from justice.gc.ca

An expense for education or extracurricular activities is extraordinary only if:

it is more than you can reasonably pay based on your income and the amount of child support you receive; or
it is not more than you can reasonably pay, but it is extraordinary when you take into account:
your income and the amount of child support you receive;
the nature and number of educational programs and extracurricular activities; the overall cost of the educational programs and activities;
any special needs and talents of the child; and
any other similar factors that are considered relevant.

My lawyer is telling me all extracurricular is split proportionate and all I see on this site is that is not the case. I have given my lawyer case law stating small fees are not extraordinary. My ex is on medical leave but I still pay full table amount she is claiming $30 reg fees that I don't feel are right to be claiming. We're heading to court. I need some advice. I have offered a proposal on a budget to avoid the grey areas of what is a legitimate extraordinary extracurricular expense. She won't budge.

[Rioe]

Extracurricular does not mean extraordinary.

The spirit of it is this: if the family was still intact, is it an expense you wouldn't even shrug at, or would it require a family talk, rearranging of budget, making some sacrifices, etc? Those decisions tend to be based on the child's interests, talent and what they're already doing, as well as what money is available.

Some low-income families would have to scrimp and save for just a set of simple swimming lessons. That makes them extraordinary.

Some high-income families wouldn't blink at buying the child a pony and getting private riding lessons. That means they're not extraordinary.

In general though, the little school field trip to a local event is probably not extraordinary, but the big end of year out of town for two nights trip likely is. Local summer recreational soccer is probably not extraordinary, but competitive league with expensive out of town tournaments for a talented kid likely is.

The only two expenses that are pretty much guaranteed to be extraordinary are post-secondary tuition and braces. Might be leaving out a third one, not sure.

[rockscan]

Daycare Rioe. Thats the third one required.

[Tandem80]

Ok, so my ex made false claims in her affidavit that she has provided me receipts for all these activities dated back to 2011, and I have unreasonably withheld consent, I have never seen any of these receipts before or been asked to contribute to them, she has hoarded them till now and made an application for me to pay my arrears in section 7 expenses.

Says in our agreement, not including school fees, well she included all those from 2011, as well as $30 reg fees for soccer x 3 kids $50 reg fees for swimming x 3 kids, and for sports equipment (figure skates? including a $9 water bottle) WTH?

I would like to stay away from court but this is now the principle. I asked numerous times for mediation and to agree on sports and ask for information about them I either get no reply or I get a, get it from my lawyer response.

I am well aware of all the Section 7 expenses, if I am going to be nickel and dimed then she will have to start paying her portion to me of the kids medical benefits I have never asked her to provide.

[rockscan]

Your response will be that she never sought your approval or advised you of these expenses.

[Desperate_Dad]

Well this is the 4th time today to give information lawyers hide from you so they can rack up lawyers fees.

Note that some things have changed here as the childrens fitness credit is no longer available but would have been available in the time period in question. Also the UCCB has been rolled into the CCB credit.

Extraordinary extracurricular expenses
Input the children's annual expenses for extraordinary extracurricular activities paid by the party (CSG, s.7(1)(f)).
IMPORTANT: You must also input any associated tax credit under:
"Children’s fitness amount” in the "Tax Credits" folder;
for the software to automatically apply the credit in determining the net cost and proportionate sharing of these Special Expenses.
To qualify as "extraordinary" under CSG, s. 7(1.1), the extracurricular activities expenses must:
 exceed those that the party requesting contribution can reasonably cover, taking into account that party's income and any table amount of child support (or such other amount of child support deemed appropriate by court) being received; or
 be expenses that the court considers extraordinary, taking into account:
 the amount of the expense in relation to the income of the party requesting contribution, including any table amount of child support (or such other amount of child support deemed appropriate by the court);
 the nature and number of the activities;
 any special needs and talents of the child(ren);
 the overall cost of the programs and activities; and
 any other similar factor that the court considers relevant.
The caselaw has established that there is an amount already factored into the table amount of support for certain “ordinary” extracurricular activities.
According to the CSG, special expenses are to be shared by the parties in proportion to their respective incomes after deducting from the expense, the contribution, if any from the child (s.7(2)), and after taking into account any subsidies, benefits or income tax deductions or credits (but not UCCB) relating to the expense, and any eligibility to claim a subsidy, benefit or income tax deduction or credit (but not UCCB) relating to the expense (s.7(3)-(4)).

[Tandem80]

I read somewhere ccb income gets added to recipients income to determine their proportionate percentage?

[Desperate_Dad]

In my opinion, it should all be added.

It is a legitimate deduction for you after all income and factors are taken into account. So if income is split 50/50, expenses are split 50/50.

That is the effect of you covering the entire expense and then deducting it for the purposes of child and spousal support.

[trinton]

your lawyer really said that? Sounds like another mother rights court rigged lawyer. Last time my ex asked me to reimburse her for a 2 dollar cost my lawyer said I should just flip her a toonie (in a sarcastic way) LOL.

The other time she sent me a 30$ expense he said it was ridiculous. There is case law that petty costs (i.e. things that would require reimbursement of less than $120 dollars) should be covered by basic child support guidelines.

S7 expenses should most always be discussed and agreed to advance. Nothing is automatic and is case by case.

Daycare can be opposed if you or another family member is available to look after the kids. Its best for children to spend time with parents and family before strangers. Strangers can be very evil . In my case, daycare is friends with mom and is double teaming with mom to super alienate the kid (and even discuss things that are simply not any of her businrss) all for the mighty buck - hey look, another child support paying loser we could create evenue from. Further if there is beforw/after school cares available at school or other places where it costs less than that can be used to oppose as well. Key thing being that you should both discuss and agree so that there is no conflict over it. I highly advise against consenting to daycare when it is not necessary or when the other parent is unilaterally cherry picking daycare providers. I have - to date - successfully opposed this daycare nonsense . The judge has told the other parent tough luck.

Tutoring should also be discussed and agreed to. it can be opposed if it was never recommended by the school or is not helping the child. Further, if it was not discussed and not agreed upon then you can oppose it. Again, the other parent needs to understand that they will not be permitted to unilaterally cherry pick these unnecessary activities without prior discussion or agreement.

Unilateral and cherry picked hockey, soccer, dance, gymnastics, horseback riding, etc are the worst and are down right just asking for trouble.

Parents can not possibly be permitted to cherry pick what they deem to be extraordinary and then just toss you reciepts - that's not how S7 works.If you want the child to do something then you discuss it with other parent . If they don't agree then if you wish, you can pay for it and do it on your own time. Stay the hell out of other parents time and stop treating them like an ATM.

Counselling (in my case) - given you have mutually agreed - own it and pay it in full. You can then brag about how awesome you are to pay for things that you feel the kids could truly benefit from and would even pay for entire amount to avoid any disagreement of any kind with other parent so that the child could start to benefit sooner than later.

Same with OFW... offer to pay that for both parents. Hopefully the other parent will be better encouraged to co-parent then and actually discuss and see if you agree- like a proper co-parent would - as opposed to unilaterall enrollment .

[Tandem80]

But that is why I am going to court cause I am unreasonably withholding consent. Lol I haven't even seen or heard of half these expense she is claiming since 2011. 2011 total for extracurricular is $100 that's $8/mo!!!

[trinton]

But that is why I am going to court cause I am unreasonably withholding consent. Lol I haven't even seen or heard of half these expense she is claiming since 2011. 2011 total for extracurricular is $100 that's $8/mo!!!

What do you mean you are unreasonably withheld consent? What does your final order say about S7? Did you ever agree to these expenses with a lawyer present? $8 a month? Not even worth my time on this thread or the waste of internet bandwidth or resources on ODF servers. Just take her little ceasers medium hot and ready pepperoni with crazy bread at the end of the month every month. that should shut her up.

[Tandem80]

She is claiming she gives me all the receipts and I refuse payment and keep referring to the clause about asking for consent for any and all expenses. If failure to do do your not eligible for consent. She never asks me a damn thing saves receipts for years claims i unreasonably withheld consent. Yup!

I didn't agree to some expenses in the beginning (because they were not extraordinary) so she kept everything hoarded them for years and now bringing them forward.

[Tandem80]

Btw no i have never seen any of the receipts she brought forward. She is a pathological liar and gets away with everything.

[trinton]

She is claiming she gives me all the receipts and I refuse payment and keep referring to the clause about asking for consent for any and all expenses. If failure to do do your not eligible for consent. She never asks me a damn thing saves receipts for years claims i unreasonably withheld consent. Yup!

I didn't agree to some expenses in the beginning (because they were not extraordinary) so she kept everything hoarded them for years and now bringing them forward.

Forgot what she says. She can say whatever she wants. Doesn't mean she's right or that she's telling the truth. . You would know what I mean if you ever read any of my ex's statements.

She has to prove you were being unreasonable.

what does your order say and what exactly is she seeking from you? and why are you opposing? I hope your answer is "Unfortunately after careful consideration, I disagree with this being necessary for our child.". Onus is on her to prove the expense was extraordinary and that you were being unreasonable.

[Tandem80]

Can u pm me?