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  • At a complete loss, need some advice

    Hi, I just realized I have been flipping through this forum since 2015! Time flies. This may be a bit long but I really need advice and opinions. Here's my story:
    My spouse's ex left him for another man in 2011. My husband left the matrimonial home and rented an apartment. He took only his personal belongings from the home. At the time of separation he had 2 kids aged 12 and 15, and an ex who was qualified in her profession, but chose not to work.
    I met my husband a year and a half after his separation.
    He is self employed and has a professional corporation. The ex continued to receive a substantial amount of monthly dividends ($7000 per month) plus my husband continued to pay ALL expenses including mortgage, insurance, household bills, even all cell phones. My husband has only ever worked and did not have a support network of any kind, so he spent time with the ex and her boyfriend and continued to visit them all at the matrimonial home. After the separation, she talked him into buying a brand new vehicle for her to drive. It is solely in his name, and to this day, he still pays 950 per month for it while his vehicle is falling apart. When we started dating, the ex would constantly ask him for money for a new fridge, or car repairs etc. He would always give her whatever she asked for. They have a joint line of credit that she ran up to 48000.00 and has never paid, he has and still does make payments on it. She would take out a cash advance everytime he made a payment to keep it maxed. We fought a lot back then because he is too trusting and passive. Things changed in 2013 when he moved into my house.
    While I worked 2 jobs to pay my mortgage and support my kids, he continued to generously pay her dividends and pay for everything for the ex and his kids. Which is wonderfully responsible of him, and a bit too kind. While he lived on credit cards and lines of credit. He also continued to pay her spousal RSP and he solely paid into an RESP! When he asked her to put the house up for sale in 2013, she simply stated "no". Since then he's been forced into litigation. There are no custody disputes, in fact one child is an adult and doesn't live at home (but he is ordered to pay child support for summer months). The kids no longer want contact with him due to another long story.
    He retained a lawyer who told him to continue to pay everything and give dividends. He heard nothing else from the lawyer until he stopped paying for her cell phone. Then started the battle...
    He had no success getting her to sell the house with the first lawyer, so he just continued to pay. Her requests were for 15000 per month, plus the vehicle and house. His SSAG mid range for his income is about $8000 per month with support for 2 children. He's had case conferences, settlement conferences, long motions and fast forward to 2017, They had sold the matrimonial home in which she received exactly half of the proceeds and everything in it, even though he had paid the past 5 years into it. He has been forced by court order to continue to pay for his vehicle while she maintains possession of it. No one has addressed the joint line of credit that he still pays for. The 2nd lawyer was just fired because my husband has used all his money to pay for lawyers who have gotten him nowhere. She works full time making 45000 per year but took an office job that pays less than what she would be paid if she worked in her profession. She bought herself a new home and has a new partner living with her. She receives $8000 per month and is still asking for more. He had paid her diligently without any order for 5 years, and when the house sold, she wanted him to pay the equivalent of the mortgage and insurance (another 4500). He wanted his vehicle back, or offered that she take over payments. Instead, her lawyer threatened to have FRO garnish his wages for the dividend and mortgage/insurance amounts and after a motion, she won that plus costs. Trial dates had been postponed because no judges were available in 2015 and 2016.
    So, here we are now. His half of the money from the house went to pay most of his debts. He still pays the joint LOC which has $47000 owing, He still pays for his vehicle that is in her possession even though she has purchased another vehicle, He pays $5500 per month ss, and $2500 per month for 1 18 yr old and summer months for an adult child who doesn't live at home. FRO is garnishing 50% of his GROSS income, as his lawyer told him to hold off paying support until an order was made which was in Feb 2017....now he's $40000 behind.
    I'm really saddened as he has worked hard all his life and has absolutely nothing to show for it. He is 59 and she is 43. I guess he won't be retiring anytime soon. We live within our means, drive old vehicles that are paid off and still work crazy shifts. He has a settlement conference coming up in which he will have to represent himself. He is a very humble, sweet man but he is easily taken advantage of. She still wants more money. He speaks ESL and has difficulty understanding many statements and she and her lawyer know that. He has spent over $150000 in lawyers fees to get him to this point. There is nothing left in the corporation because he used it for lawyers fees to try to get her to sell the house and try to come to an agreement. He wants to pay his child support for 1 who is living at home, and spousal support at a lower amount as he has significantly overpaid and was left with all debt. They were married 16 years. He has been paying for over 6 years. The only way out of this is to pay her everything she wants even though unreasonable, or he will be dragged into trial at some point.
    Sorry for the long, tedious post. This story has a lot more where he has been taken advantage of. I'm just tired and don't know what to do at this point. Any ideas would be appreciated.

  • #2
    What exactly does the court order require?

    SS - that is a high amount, is his income not high enough to justify that amount?

    Joint Line of Credit - Does the court order require it to remain open? Why was it not paid off with the proceeds from the sale of the house?

    Car - He was ordered to make the car payments on top of SS?

    Dividends - He was ordered to pay her $7000 per month in dividends? Is this on top of the SS?


    From your story he is paying over $150,000 per year in support. His income would have to be very high to require that level of support, but he is driving beat up cars? Having trouble making ends meet? The story doesn't make sense.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you for having the patience to read my post. This is exactly why I need advice. It doesn't make sense and never has. His gross income is around $300000 per yr. From this he pays corporate and personal taxes in the amount of roughly $11000 per month. Professional and Insurance fee's to practice equal $4000 per month.
      His order from a long motion is for him to pay combined ss/cs for 1 child and 1 child for summer months of $8000 per month, According to the SSAG mid range, it is pretty close however that is for 2 children. The ex says the 21 yr old still lives at home (yes, we have proof that she doesn't).
      The order also states he will maintain payments on the vehicle on top of the ss/cs, and it shall remain in her possession.
      The joint LOC has never been dealt with. It has been brought up by the lawyers, but nothing has ever been done about it. The issue continues to be skipped over.
      The $7000 per month was what he was paying voluntarily, without an order. He no longer pays this dividend.
      Together, they lived well beyond their means. They racked up hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and also still owed a large mortgage on the house-so there wasn't a huge amount of equity. He has paid and continues to pay all debts. I forgot to mention that he also paid her income tax for the first 2 years after separation. This is why it is so frustrating. Her lawyer is good and sets him up all the time for example, when he paid her dividends every month, her lawyer would write a letter to his saying her client had not yet received any support (although she had), this occurred about 8 times.
      It's not that he couldn't get a newer car, however he already has a loan in his name only which he is pays for the new vehicle she is driving.
      The credit card debt and lines of credit were maxed. He was paying about $2000 per month just in interest!
      So, you are right. This story doesn't make sense.
      None of this makes sense.
      I would really appreciate some help.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
        I would really appreciate some help.
        With an income like that your partner should have a lawyer. That lawyer should be: Niman Gelgoot and Associates LLP - Family Law in Toronto, Ontario, Canada

        Most of the litigants that come here cannot afford legal counsel so forgive me if I have little sympathy for a 1%er who has a crappy lawyer.

        Your partner has the means to retain a lawyer. Furthermore, the complexities that come (in family law) with being a part of the 1% is not something that most people on this forum can (a) understand or (b) help with. The best place to go is to a lawyer who generally represents clients like your partner.

        Good Luck!
        Tayken
        Last edited by Tayken; 03-25-2017, 05:41 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          I appreciate your advice Tayken. Don't get me wrong, we are not crying poor, but everything is relative. When you earn that much, you pay that much more in taxes and other fees. We have had 2 lawyers who managed to get him nowhere after paying them well over 100k. I guess it boils down to this; A good man who has voluntarily paid double what the guidelines warrant, all of his family's bills, expenses, and housing costs, and now has had to fight and pay useless lawyers because she wants more. How many men pay their ex's double what is required, buy them a new vehicle, and pay for all of their expenses after they have been replaced by another man? To top it off, he also ends up with all the debt and paying for a vehicle that is his, but is not in his possession. I think it's reasonable to expect that she pay for the vehicle and transfer it to her name, or give it back. She already bought herself another car. As for the line of credit, it boggles my mind that the issue has never been dealt with. The lawyers were well aware of it. I would love to hire the lawyer you recommended, however the small issue with the FRO taking half of his GROSS income for support and arrears doesn't leave him enough to pay his monthly taxes. He has yet another settlement conference coming up and again, she refuses to settle unless she has everything and then some. I agree, he needs a lawyer. Until FRO stops taking half of his gross income, we cannot afford one. So how to go about this settlement conference representing himself is pretty scary. If the brief is well written, will duty council present it for him?

          Comment


          • #6
            first and fore most important. That's what evil crooked controlling women can and will do to innocent kind men in this country. Especially so when a sexist judge presides the matter, and when the man's rights are not only not protected, they are walked on.

            What your man needs is a very good lawyer. Not just joe from the phone book. He must feel comfortable with the lawyer and the lawyer must know what the hell he is doing and have a very good reputation.

            I have a feeling he is too kind and everyone, even the lawyers are taking advantage of him. He is approaching the wrong kind of people. Souless and heartless people. This country is full of them. They are blood thirsty for money.

            Take the time, find a good lawyer who is not after the money he brings in from his corporation, but rather, genuinely caring about his situation and wanting to address it fairly and justly.

            He's going to get screwed self representing, and with duty counsel, you either get a very good one that is through and addresses everything promptly, or you get one like the one I did, who .. yeah.. let's just not go there.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Tayken View Post
              With an income like that your partner should have a lawyer. That lawyer should be: Niman Gelgoot and Associates LLP - Family Law in Toronto, Ontario, Canada

              Most of the litigants that come here cannot afford legal counsel so forgive me if I have little sympathy for a 1%er who has a crappy lawyer.

              Your partner has the means to retain a lawyer. Furthermore, the complexities that come (in family law) with being a part of the 1% is not something that most people on this forum can (a) understand or (b) help with. The best place to go is to a lawyer who generally represents clients like your partner.

              Good Luck!
              Tayken
              I agree with Tayken.

              Not enough substantive information has been provided. Ages of parties, length of marriage... did the wife provide support or contribute financially to the husband while he went through medical school or something similar? It is very easy to gloss over these very important details. Husband may be in an upwardly-mobile career guaranteeing large dividends.

              I agree that many people easily make rudimentary judgement without knowing or understanding details/circumstances of high-income divorces. There is some, but not a lot, of information on CanLii as most wealthy people settle matters privately (arbitration, etc.).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
                I appreciate your advice Tayken. Don't get me wrong, we are not crying poor, but everything is relative.
                Yes, it is relative. It is relatively easy for your husband to retain a top-notch lawyer that can deal with everything you stated. The problem is not legal counsel I think... It is your husband. A lawyer is typically only as good as their client and if your husband is a wet noodle as you describe then you are going to have to deal with the fact he will give away everything in this divorce.

                Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
                When you earn that much, you pay that much more in taxes and other fees.
                Even at 50% you are talking about 150,000 after taxes. 99% of the forum here does not even make that a year let alone take it home after taxes!

                Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
                We have had 2 lawyers who managed to get him nowhere after paying them well over 100k.
                How much of your husband's stupidity is of his own making though? I suspect it is mostly his problem and not legal counsel. If you have a client who will cave then there isn't much you can do.

                Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
                I guess it boils down to this; A good man who has voluntarily paid double what the guidelines warrant, all of his family's bills, expenses, and housing costs, and now has had to fight and pay useless lawyers because she wants more.
                I have no sympathy for rich people who consent to a bad offer. He had legal counsel and probably good legal counsel. But, ultimately, a lawyer can't make you do something. Your husband agreed to a crappy deal and now has to live with it. No doubt if he had a 600+ an hour lawyer they recommended other things than what he agreed to.

                Also, you are here lamenting about what he agreed to. Because it impacts you. Should have thought about that prior to getting involved. Not like you didn't know about the situation.

                Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
                How many men pay their ex's double what is required, buy them a new vehicle, and pay for all of their expenses after they have been replaced by another man?
                Most who make 300,000++ per annum. Next time you go digging for gold do your research.

                Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
                To top it off, he also ends up with all the debt and paying for a vehicle that is his, but is not in his possession.
                You are being penny wise and pound foolish. Cars in a 300,000 a year income are incidentals like kraft dinner is like for most of the posters on this site. Sorry to say, even if it is a very expensive car someone who grosses over 300,000 a year can pay off a car quickly. Even a really stupidly expensive one.

                Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
                I think it's reasonable to expect that she pay for the vehicle and transfer it to her name, or give it back.
                Reasonable is reasonable. Your wet noodle of a husband agreed to the terms and no doubt it is a signed agrement or an order. Which now makes it LAW. He has to follow the order or agreement. Too bad so sad. Better legal advice would have prevailed... If he would follow it...

                Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
                She already bought herself another car.
                Who cares what she does with HER money.

                Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
                As for the line of credit, it boggles my mind that the issue has never been dealt with.
                Answer: Because your wet noodle of a husband didn't instruct his lawyer(s) to deal with it.

                Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
                The lawyers were well aware of it.
                And your wet noodle husband failed to instruct them to act on it. No doubt they advised him properly. Lawyers only can do what their clients tell them to. You seem to think that lawyers run the show. They advise you to your legal options and then execute on YOUR instructions. They are NOT magical wizards who perform legal spells to make everything go away. Your wet noodle husband needs to tell them to act and provide instruction. Clearly, he can't do this and agrees to bad deals.

                Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
                I would love to hire the lawyer you recommended, however the small issue with the FRO taking half of his GROSS income for support and arrears doesn't leave him enough to pay his monthly taxes.
                1. Spousal support is tax deductable.
                2. Child support is the RIGHT OF THE CHILD.
                3. If FRO is collecting money from your wet noodle husband then there is either an agreement or order in place. If it is an agreement then he didn't follow the advice of his lawyer. If it is an order he didn't act appropriately. The lawyers didn't fail you... Your wet noodle husband failed you. Stop blaming the lawyers.

                Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
                He has yet another settlement conference coming up and again, she refuses to settle unless she has everything and then some.
                Then stop attending SCs and bring a motion that will trigger a trial of the issues. But, if he already has agreed to a pile of stuff upsetting the status quo is going to be hard... Very hard.

                Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
                I agree, he needs a lawyer. Until FRO stops taking half of his gross income, we cannot afford one.
                If people who make 60K a year can get legal counsel you can. Even if you are left with 150,000 and half that goes to the other party in CS and SS that leaves him with 75,000 AFTER TAXES! To be frank, the majority of the posters on this site on this site probably earn HALF the 75,000 (37,500) and have to pay income tax on top of that.

                So go peddle your nonsense somewhere else.

                Originally posted by standbyyourman View Post
                So how to go about this settlement conference representing himself is pretty scary. If the brief is well written, will duty council present it for him?
                Duty council CANNOT REPRESENT HIM! He earns well above the threshold allowable for him to be represented by duty counsel. It would be a gross miss use of Legal Aid Ontario services for anyone in that organization to represent him!! He does not qualify!

                He needs to put on his big boy pants and get a lawyer. Or you need to get a job and fill the gaps in the income so one can be retained.

                Good Luck!
                Tayken
                Last edited by Tayken; 03-27-2017, 01:18 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  His ex could tear him a new one under current divorce laws without him giving her the keys to the bank.

                  He either needs to grow a backbone, suffers from divorce guilt, or is a savant idiot.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think what the poster is saying is that his gross revenue is 300k, and that his gross income is something below that 300k. However, his support obligations are being based upon his gross revenue instead of his gross income, which means that his support obligations are completely out of whack with his actual ability to pay.

                    That said, could you in bullet form say exactly (sorta exactly, don't have to be exact for privacy sake, ballpark is good) what was ordered? Fill in the blanks:

                    1) Income imputed at ___________
                    2) CS set at ____________
                    3) SS set at ____________
                    4) Other obligations
                    -
                    -
                    -


                    Actual gross income after reasonable expenses (not meals or cellphones or other crap that CRA accepts but family judges do not). Reasonable expenses are probably salaries paid to other people, rent, equipment purchases.


                    ____________


                    But yeah, with that much money, probably need a real lawyer. There is too much chum in the water for the ex to avoid the feeding frenzy.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      At a complete loss, need some advice

                      If my partner could afford a $300 an hour barracuda on ei income, your partner can afford a lawyer. And if its a case that your household income will suffer then add a head shake in there and quit being an idiot. If hes got a problem with his ex and you dont like it then he needs to use his money to deal with it and you pick up the slack to support your family.

                      Comment

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