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  • Spouse refuses to work

    Great forum, I was hoping for some thoughts and advice on my situation, I couldn't find one exactly like mine.

    My ex and I separated in 2010 and she is university educated can earn $75,000 a year but she refuses to work. Our separation agreement states she must use best efforts to find work. She hasn't applied for any work at all, I sent her three emails with job postings to help her find work and she had her lawyer send me a note to stop harassing her and to stop all communication.

    She won't grant my divorce and she is asking for more money and our situation has progressed to going to court to settle this problem.

    She claims sexual abuse from her step father 35 years ago and she started to seek counseling in March 2011. Now she claims this is the reason she can no longer work. it is true and it is very sad, the good news was the step father pleaded guilty so she didn't have to testify in court. This finished in the summer of 2011.

    During our marriage we both worked full time and equally spent time raising two kids, we have shared custody. I was able to have $20k imputed to her however she receives so much child support and spousal support she doesnt need to work at all and can live very comfortably. Now she wants to re-train from her 25 year career to become a social worker which she has started full time school in January 2012 paid for by Ontario government, so all your tax dollars too. Once completed she may make $35,000 which to me doesn't seem like a reasonable plan, she is asking to take 3 years to complete the program full time.

    My two questions are as follows.
    Does anyone know how to specifically show in court that earning half your salary is not reasonable? I searched CanLii and didnt find anything close to my situation.

    I feel like I am paying for the step fathers crime, she won't work because of the trauma of the event. I have much higher child support, section 7 and spousal support payments. This means that I can't save for the kids university or get my life improved financially as well. Does anyone have and legal advise or thoughts about this, it seems to me she should sue her step father for lost income and the court should impute the full $75,000 she is capable of earning.

    I should also point out that she volunteers at the kids school, is an active member of toastmasters holding the position of vice president of recruitment, is a board member for a local not for profit company that has about $10million in annual revenue so this is not a small job. She also arranged the annual golf tournament for 300 people. Managed a major $35,000 house upgrade with multiple contractors and Suppliers. also, she owns her own small business and has been running this company to cover all her expenses to write off her mortgage, gas, car, etc. however she only makes $9,000 a year now on tax returns. Also, she was had time to arrange 8 vacations for a week or two over the last 3years.

    Tanks in advance everyone. Great forum!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Dad07411 View Post
    My ex and I separated in 2010 and she is university educated can earn $75,000 a year but she refuses to work. Our separation agreement states she must use best efforts to find work. She hasn't applied for any work at all, I sent her three emails with job postings to help her find work and she had her lawyer send me a note to stop harassing her and to stop all communication.

    She won't grant my divorce and she is asking for more money and our situation has progressed to going to court to settle this problem.

    She claims sexual abuse from her step father 35 years ago and she started to seek counseling in March 2011. Now she claims this is the reason she can no longer work. it is true and it is very sad, the good news was the step father pleaded guilty so she didn't have to testify in court. This finished in the summer of 2011.

    During our marriage we both worked full time and equally spent time raising two kids, we have shared custody. I was able to have $20k imputed to her however she receives so much child support and spousal support she doesnt need to work at all and can live very comfortably. Now she wants to re-train from her 25 year career to become a social worker which she has started full time school in January 2012 paid for by Ontario government, so all your tax dollars too. Once completed she may make $35,000 which to me doesn't seem like a reasonable plan, she is asking to take 3 years to complete the program full time.

    My two questions are as follows.
    Does anyone know how to specifically show in court that earning half your salary is not reasonable? I searched CanLii and didnt find anything close to my situation.

    I feel like I am paying for the step fathers crime, she won't work because of the trauma of the event. I have much higher child support, section 7 and spousal support payments. This means that I can't save for the kids university or get my life improved financially as well. Does anyone have and legal advise or thoughts about this, it seems to me she should sue her step father for lost income and the court should impute the full $75,000 she is capable of earning.

    I should also point out that she volunteers at the kids school, is an active member of toastmasters holding the position of vice president of recruitment, is a board member for a local not for profit company that has about $10million in annual revenue so this is not a small job. She also arranged the annual golf tournament for 300 people. Managed a major $35,000 house upgrade with multiple contractors and Suppliers. also, she owns her own small business and has been running this company to cover all her expenses to write off her mortgage, gas, car, etc. however she only makes $9,000 a year now on tax returns. Also, she was had time to arrange 8 vacations for a week or two over the last 3years.

    Tanks in advance everyone. Great forum!
    When was your SA completed? DId you use lawyers? When did she last earn $75K? How long were you together? On what basis is she asking for more money? How is she paying for the difference between $20K and $9K? What province are you in? How much do you earn in comparison?

    Comment


    • #3
      Agreement was signed Jan 2010, we both had lawyers and we use mediation to work out the details. She earned 75,000 in 2007 and started her home business as an independent sales executive. I make $200,000 so she gets a large amount of support given the differences in salary. In 2007 I made about $90k and she made $75. We both worked for most of our careers making almost the amount It wasn't until 2008 when I started to earn more. She has her own business so she can write off many expenses so on her income tax it looks like she is making $9k. The imputed amount of $20k was set by the mediator, I thought it was unfair, so she agreed to find full time work with best efforts starting in march 2010 written into the agreement. Well she didn't look for work at all, she does her own personal things and is now in school. When I filed for the divorce she contested it asking for more money because she's in school and wants more money. Note, school started January 2012. We are located in Ontario.
      Thanks

      Comment


      • #4
        Just a fair comment - as the last poster pointed out you need to add the correct details to command a resonable response. For starters how long were you together incl before you were married. Nobody willl care about 2007 and 2010 - your answers will come from what about on the day of your seperation or better called your valuation date (seperation comes later) and as or more important what are your incomes today if you were standing in front of the court..... this is what they will go by.

        20K sucks - do searches here and you would find that is the common amount to impute - you can go to the effort of determining the income she is trained for and bring so much cogent evidence to that fact for it to be even looked at given your ex is not bound to get her old job back or her old pay - only that she try to find full time self supporting work. If she wants to go to school you may not have any say in it (you are no longer married!) but think of it as the only recourse the court has is to impute income.... question is how much?? think about the basic details you are not putting in your posts..... and you will get more specific help.

        Comment


        • #5
          Wouldn’t give up so easily.Many men have gone down the route of underemployment or going back to school to dodge support -CAN LI is where you need to search.Those cases could help you with dealing your situation.

          Comment


          • #6
            Ddol1,
            We were married for 16 years and 8 months and lived together for a year before. Our valuation date was June 2009. Also, I did send her one job for $80k, she applied for the position and received a email that she qualified for the job as she had so much experience, my ex sent me a copy of the email communication, that's how I know. Then she didn't show up for the interview. In total I sent her over 40 job postings from $60k to $100k and she didnt apply to any of them. It will go in my brief, not sure if a judge would take that as good evidence for imputing income.

            She is claiming Post Tramatic Stress Disorder however, it's from a social worker with a Masters degree. There is no doctors evidence, she claims that it is better now as I volunteered to look after the kids full time until she was better. The letter also supports switching from sales to a lower earning salary to be a social worker, there is no comment why that would be better other than personal interest in my opinion. Im sure if I left my job to be a social worker for $40k, she would complain.

            If she does have emotional illness does that mean she can do all her own things and go to school full time, but just not work? Seems unfair. Seems to me there must be victims of sexual abuse that get treatment support and still have to make a living.

            So, how do you prove to a court She can earn a higher income and switching jobs is not reasonable? It would appear a need to higher a job expert and a doctor to get further expert evidence. What about the crime of her step father, should I be liable to pay more because of his actions 35 years ago?

            Let me know if there is something else missing I was trying to be brief.

            Comment


            • #7
              I would not concern yourself about her income regarding CS calculation.

              Just use actual incomes for that. It seems she may not be realistically reporting her self employment income, so you should make sure it is grossed up to a T4 equivalent.

              As for SS, her decisions to change careers is your concern. SS should be based on her earning potential and what happened in the marriage. During the marriage your incomes were close, so SS entitlement seems unfair.

              Why do you make so much more now though?

              At the least SS should be based on your actual salary and her potential salary.

              Her issues with her past should not be relevant in my opinion, especially considering her high amount of volunteer and self employed work, and that she worked full time during the marriage.

              If you had the kids full time, did you stop paying CS during that time and have her pay you?

              Comment


              • #8
                Why would anyone with PTSD from being sexually abused want to switch from being in sales to being a social worker? Both are stressful, and I'd think in the new position they would be more likely to encounter triggers for the PTSD!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Rioe View Post
                  Why would anyone with PTSD from being sexually abused want to switch from being in sales to being a social worker? Both are stressful, and I'd think in the new position they would be more likely to encounter triggers for the PTSD!

                  That's what I thought.Many of the underprivileged and homeless in our society are suffering from mental health problems formed by abuse.To enter as a front line worker with people who have suffered what she has, and to have to hear it daily.....well it would seem counter productive.You could put money on it that she would relapse from PTSD and be out of work again.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Rioe View Post
                    Why would anyone with PTSD from being sexually abused want to switch from being in sales to being a social worker? Both are stressful, and I'd think in the new position they would be more likely to encounter triggers for the PTSD!
                    It's a fair point, but what she does is certainly her business.

                    Expecting more SS based on her decisions though is not reasonable. If she wants to make less money, that is on her, when it comes to SS.

                    As for CS, it should be based on what the parents actually make (or the equivalent based on what they are living on if supported by external means).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      More thoughts, and I hope I have recapped your facts accurately:

                      She was abused by her step-father long before you ever met and married her.

                      This didn't stop her from becoming university educated and having a 25-year career that earned 75k a year by the time your marriage ended.

                      When the marriage ended in 2010, you were earning 200k.

                      You share the kids, and pay her offset child support, as well as spousal support. How did she get entitled to spousal support in the first place? 75k is a perfectly good income to support oneself one. What was the logic used that won over the judge?

                      In 2011, she stopped working, claiming PTSD from the historical abuse. Her income was imputed to 20k for the child support offset.

                      In 2012, she went back to school to train for a new career, supported by government programs and your spousal support.

                      All along, she has been volunteering extensively and running her own business that makes little income on the books. She also takes numerous vacations. (While I see the point that taking so many vacations is not the sign of someone being frugal, the judge might just see it as jealousy/bitterness on your part.)

                      The separation agreement indicates she is to find work, and while you send her all the job posting you encounter, she ignores you. (This might come across to a judge as controlling behaviour on your part. You might want to stop. You want to prove there are jobs out there, sure, but you don't need to prove she's aware of them to demonstrate she isn't trying.)

                      Your questions are vague, however, and you don't provide enough information. You present your situation in such a way that we are obviously supposed to agree with you that she's a freeloader. What are you after, exactly? Is there an end date for spousal support in your agreement? Are you hoping to go back to court to get one? Do you want her income imputed to 75k instead of 20k? Do you have upcoming court dates you want to prepare for, or are you intending to reopen the agreement?

                      I think you need to go back to your agreement and figure out what set her up with spousal support in the first place. Then see if those circumstances have changed. And sufficient time having elapsed for them to have changed as intended but not having done so qualifies. Was she supposed to be supported by you temporarily until she found a job? When and why did she lose her job in the first place? Then you can argue that she isn't making reasonable efforts to find a job and spousal support should end because she's had sufficient time. Or you can argue that her reason for not being able to work due to PTSD isn't valid because of her evident ability to volunteer extensively and her choice to retrain for a career where PTSD could be a liability. This shows that she is simply not making reasonable efforts to uphold her part of the agreement.

                      So that's the spousal support half tackled. You're also not happy about the child support or section 7 proportion? Would having the spousal support eliminated make you feel better about the rest? Or do you still want her imputed to 75k even if she only ends up making 35k? How old are the kids, and how long would child support last?
                      Last edited by Rioe; 11-04-2012, 12:53 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I would recommend sticking closely to the facts. It has been my personal experience in dealing with SS that recent, relevant income is used in calculating things. Anything over 3 yrs is likely not too relevant.

                        Your ex going to school will be viewed favorably. If your ex is only in her 40's then re-training would be considered a good thing. She could get a degree in social work and not necessarily work "front line" as there are many different careers requiring a MSW for research positions. Be prepared for her to respond in that manner if questioned. It doesn't make sense for someone who is soon to be divorced to spend time and money at school only to take a position that pays almost half of what they were making before. I therefore think that your "perception" should be adjusted here. You certainly do not know for certain, what her plans are in the future. Keep in mind that SS decisions are based on FACTS and not suppositions. Your SS should be calculated on difference in income over past 3 - 4 yrs. Did you have a different calculation method? What is the formula?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ok, we both are 50 years old, two kids 16 and 14. I earn about $150k in salary and work overtime during the extra the week I don't have the kids to earn an addition $50k in annual bonus.

                          My ex got into spiritualism in a big way, it consumed her so she was fired from a very good job for doing this research and emailing friends on company time. She was fired in April 2007 and decided to start her own business. By that time, I was making more so she didn't have to work that hard. My preference was her to make it successful however, the same problem of spending all her time on spiritualism stuff. No man today can tell his wife what to do, work or not work so this was her choice and i had to live with it. So, we called it quits in June 2009, and negotiated a settlement with a mediator and we each had our own legal council. So we divided all the assets sold the house and we live in different houses close to each other for the kids.

                          Child support is calculated from the tables and I pay spousal support as well until December 2018. I think the arrangement is fair but she is now asking for the upper end of SSAG because of the tramatic event and that she wants to retrain even though we had agreement that she would start work again in march 2010. She has stayed home and didnt look for work. I have not found a case similar to mine on CanLii. It feels like I have to pay for the step fathers crime if I lose the case. We are now obviously in court.

                          Because she is not working I'm overpaying child support and section 7 because she can make $70 to $80k. So I would like a reduction in support paid, by imputing income in that range versus $20k. Are their cases that have been successful in imputing income. The twist is the sex assault 35 years ago, but I think if she can't work, she should seek compensation from the step father versus me.


                          I'm looking for a case that shows the education plan is unreasonable, earning half of what you are capable of seems unreasonable, but is the math proof enough? Also, I did research on PTSD and social workers and there is a high chance of reoccurance, is the articles from the PHDs enough or do I need to bring an expert to court? This new profession seems unreasonable. I also contacted the local community college and she could take the course part time in the evening. The catch is that she has to give up the $8000 government grant because she can work and pay the expense herself.

                          I have a brief from her lawyer that outlines her plan, so she quit sales and is working to complete her social work class by 2013 sometime.

                          Thanks

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            An extra week's work to make an additional 50K? Surely this must be a typo and you mean to say you make an extra 50K for the "weeks" you don't have the kids? Your kids are past an age where they require babysitting so I don't see the relevance.

                            You split the marital assets and you now should be filing for divorce. The amount of SS you currently pay should be calculated on the average income you earned, less hers, for the 3 yrs leading up the to separation. If there was no "incentive" for her to become self sufficient, by way of a graduated imputed income, then you had a very poor separation agreement. You separated when you were in your 40s and at the time of separation your wife would likely not have qualified under the "rule of 65" for indefinite spousal support. You say that your agreement has you paying SS until 2018. That's approximately 10 yrs of SS along with equalization payment (half of marital property). I'd say she did rather well for someone who wasn't in a particularly long-term relationship and who doesn't meet the threshold for "rule of 65" indefinite SS.

                            In order to change the SS you would likely have to show a change of circumstances. The burden of proof rests with you. Even if you come up with proof she is likely to counter that with her current psychological issues. It's pretty easy to get medical certificates stating one can't work. I know it's ridiculous but you better accept it.

                            Is there a possible way you could come up with some money and offer her a cash settlement to end the SS?

                            Failing that I would move forward with the divorce. Have your lawyer review the existing SS arrangement and request it be reduced to more accurately reflect the current situation. It sounds as though your ex is set up comfortably and reduction in SS won't throw here into abject poverty.

                            Her previous university education is out-dated. It sounds as though she has a poor work history. She also sounds to be a bit of a "whack job." I wouldn't necessarily focus on her short-comings as it might be her best defense for validity why she cannot work.

                            In summary, I'd offer a cash settlement to end SS. Failing that push for the divorce and have SS term shortened.
                            Last edited by arabian; 11-04-2012, 06:18 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Arabian, you are correct, I work every other week long hours to make the extra $50k. She is a very capable person and not a wack job as you say. We get along and the kids are doing great so that is the most important thing for me.

                              She sells to large corporations like Telus from her small business, she can get products made in china and shipped directly here so she has considerable skills if she applys herself.

                              I will speak to my lawyer about the SS calculation, perhaps it can be reduced in amount and/or duration or a one time payment, which probably means it is not tax deductible. There doesn't seem to be motivation for self-sufficiency.

                              Thanks for the helpful advice.

                              Comment

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