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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 03-24-2012, 10:33 PM
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i am pointing my finger at the 'systemic problem' ,
1 gender is benefiting from it = yes but they are
not making the decisions - lawyers/Judges are.

50/50 ? - no lawyer i had ever uttered those words,
i only know 1 family here with such an arrangement,
multiple police charges around child endangerment etc
landed a 50/50.

my children are in those graphs ... my experience aligns with
whats in those graphs, the fathers around me that got better
than every second weekend have horrifc stories - so I believe
those graphs tell some truths ...

right now you only have the right to persue 50/50% - if the court
isnt making that clear then its not the law its all argumentive ($$)

if 50/50 is practised in the court room then its like the saying
"build it, and they will come" ... (edit: for those fathers who are giving up without trying )

btw: its interesting you mention CanLII.org, my decision isnt
on canLII.org , i never got a trial, my friend John did get a
trial - he isnt listed either, we cant not be found in the
Alberta Law Society records either ...

that doesnt make me a liar

at this time what I do know is the moment i told the court my children are telling me their court ordered therapist told them 'your girls, girls live with
their mothers' the Judge/Lawyer (not mine) exchanged some concerns
on "new" rules and then the Judge invoked rules of court in
my case that are not in my court orders - i asked what they meant and never got an answer ..

your absolutely right - its like it never happened

but it did ..

Last edited by pokeman; 03-24-2012 at 11:00 PM. Reason: marked update with (edit: )
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 03-24-2012, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
i am pointing my finger at the 'systemic problem' ,
1 gender is benefiting from it = yes but they are
not making the decisions - lawyers/Judges are.
Shaw v. Shaw which is case law I have posted a number of times was a *man* using the systemic problems against a (gasp!) *woman*. This president was brought about by a woman not a man. Who would have thought?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
50/50 ? - no lawyer i had ever uttered those words,
i only know 1 family here with such an arrangement,
multiple police charges around child endangerment etc
landed a 50/50.
The vast majority of solicitors statistically are "solution" oriented and not "negative advocates". Search for "negative advocate lawyer" read the materials and the studies done by William Eddy in the matter then we can talk.

By law a solicitor has to advise their clients of the default. I highly recommend you report all the solicitors you dealt with to the Law Society for resolution and provide the cogent and relevant evidence. They are bound by their governing body to advise their clients to the law. If you didn't get this advice then complain. It is the best way to fix it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
my children are in those graphs ... my experience aligns with
whats in those graphs, the fathers around me that got better
than every second weekend have horrifc stories - so I believe
those graphs tell some truths ...
Because the *parents* who are reasonable don't go blaming the system. They work together, hire "solution oriented" solicitors to assist (when needed) and don't engage the court. They are the majority not the minority as you claim. Your experience is not the norm. So don't try to apply your definition of the norm to what is the norm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
right now you only have the right to persue 50/50% - if the court
isnt making that clear then its not the law its all argumentive ($$)
Then you shouldn't have married a high-conflict person. Have you looked at why you married someone and had kids who would do this? Have you looked into why things got so bad in your relationship? Rather than blaming the system as the problem what have you done in your matter to resolve the problem.

Blaming the system because you possibly married and had children with someone who is high-conflict is not the system of law's problem. The problem is with who you married and had children with. Not the legal system. Unless you have substantive evidence that is cogent and relevant that the other party miss used the system against you it is a moot cause to blame the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
if 50/50 is practised in the court room then its like the saying
"build it, and they will come" ... (edit: for those fathers who are giving up without trying )
Those fathers who give up do so on their own. They don't seek the right advice and are lazy. They don't bother reading, understanding and researching the different options. Publishing positive materials on the importance of both parents equally involved in children's lives is a better use of your time than projecting blame at the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
btw: its interesting you mention CanLII.org, my decision isnt
on canLII.org , i never got a trial, my friend John did get a
trial - he isnt listed either, we cant not be found in the
Alberta Law Society records either ...
Provide them your file number and they will post it. The court can request the posting but, members of the public can too. Post "John's" court file number from any of his materials and I can send the information over and it will be posted. Simple request anyone can make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
that doesnt make me a liar
Provide your court file number and I can have a service provider pull the full record. If there was an application before the court it is part of the public record. Just need the file number. Not even the court jurisdiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
at this time what I do know is the moment i told the court my children are telling me their court ordered therapist told them 'your girls, girls live with
their mothers' the Judge/Lawyer (not mine) exchanged some concerns
on "new" rules and then the Judge invoked rules of court in
my case that are not in my court orders - i asked what they meant and never got an answer ..
Do you have a lawyer? Even as a self represented litigant it is your responsibility to KNOW THE LAW. If you don't know or understand the law... Then it is your responsibility to learn it. What are "rules of court"? The only thing enforceable is what is written in an order.

Your last paragraph there is really confusing. No doubt you don't understand the law and are confused by the legal system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
your absolutely right - its like it never happened

but it did ..
Just read the confusing paragraph in your message. It is almost delusional in nature and disjointed. You reference things that don't exist. You sight no Rules or law. You just express projections of blame on the system without any reference to any broken parts. Just the whole system.

Do you take issue with the Divorce Act? The best interest rules? How case law has interpreted these rules? How the Criminal Justice system is leveraged potentially in negligent ways? Failure to train police in proper procedure in dealing with family matters? What are you blaming. The system as a "whole" is an easy target. You need to narrow your argument and focus on a single issue that can be resolved.

It is cathartic to make a website complaining about the "system" but, it is unintelligible from what you communicate what the particulars are you are trying to point out.

Good Luck!
Tayken
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2012, 12:18 AM
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The president set a precedent by citing Homer when he sighted the donut ... DOH!
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2012, 12:20 AM
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alberta rules of court looks like this
Alberta Queen's Printer: Alberta Rules of Court 1968

yes, i had 160,000$ worth of expensive calgary lawyers

"like it didnt happen" was in reference to it not being listed on alta law society website nor canlii.org

i hired lawyers in good trust to help me and my family, i listened to them - I gave them instructions like 'work with X lawyer and lets sell the home' so we could "BOTH" get our own place, the lawyers would not take instructions, any instrcutions I gave they said find another lawyer or do it there way - another lawyer wanted $5000 to 7500$ inital retainer fee to read your file without doing anything else - i tried that but they behaved the exact same way ...

when we got in front of the Judge (in this example regarding the house ) the X's lawyer protrayed me as someone trying to 'get it all' and my lawyer did nothing ...

its like I was held in suspended animation, if I broke free I would have to get another lawyer at $5000 min ...

other strange things in court would be while my lawyer was speaking the Judge turning to my X's lawyer mid sentence and telling her council to take a message to her client 'It wont be long now' ...

WTF - does that sound like a court room full of professionals seeking justice ?

i understand my case might not be normal , but i can honestly say I have sought out other fathers here and all their storeys to me reek of injustice, only those where their spouse died have what sounds like a common sense judgement.

right - I dont think this is normal with all the 50/50 i hear, my case involved domestic violence so i often thought maybe just maybe some other rules of engagement where over riding normal protocol ...

in summary, my personal experience is "I was processed, not Judged " ,
its riddled through out posts on this website that 'bias' exists - when graphed it seems it must be proven otherwise.

i will reread the counter posts above and research more, however
i experienced whats in those graphs - did you ?
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2012, 02:40 PM
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went through the links posted previously

regarding 50/50 access being legislated, i only find access and custody under Canada Divorce Act as follows :
Divorce Act.

the court is not directed to assume 50/50 access, there is a 'maximum contact' subclause at best that the court is to consider under 'best interest of the children' which becomes argumentive , thats a far cry from 50/50 being legislated. this is what I previously understood and currently believe to still be true.

if anyone knows the link can they paste that directs the court clearly on 50/50 access by default ?

to rephrase in laymen terms what true reform might look like - not matter how its achived I believe if women and men need to walk into a court room in regards to custody and access then the first words out
of the Judges mouth is "access is 50/50 and anyone who opens their mouth to the constrary better have a dam good reason".


i looked at some of the other statistics, they are no better - in 2004
CANSIM - Results
mothers got 50% sole custody, the other 50% is pretty much joint custody, there is no shared custody data ... i have joint custody and 12% access -the statistics canada 2006 data graphs would indicate where my children would most likely live, today its correct.

obviously some dont like the 2006 statistics graphed - the graphs may have imperfections and anomolies however the sample is so large it shows the past decade+ trend as of 2006, if the argument is fathers dont try thats all the more reason 50/50 needs to be the norm and clearly stated so, 'build it and they will come'.


other reform i would like to see is in domestic violence 'child abuse' cases:
if its deemed the abuser can be rehabilitated than child abusers should be
handed the equivalent of a sentence like the criminal code does, and the
sentence would be something like this ( dont quote me on time frames - just the concept ):

1 to 3 years supervised access, mandatory courses, followed by mediator assigned and every other weekend access for 2 years then 50/50 ...


my experience in a child abuse case is that "i was put on ice" while my X dragged me to court repeatitly trying to over turn supervision then access with a mountain of evidence against them ... why ? , because no clear structure of what their sentence was - again, it was have $ and the court doors swung open.



in closing, if anyone is wondering contrary to what posts in this topic may indirectly suggest, some of my best friends are infact women.

individual women who receive custody is not the issue here, its the infrastructure thats the issue - 'systemic' as its been called above.

for example , my court experince includes being told by 2 professionals who reported directly to Judge 'children should be with their mothers', one of which added 'especially girls', thats discrimination!
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2012, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
yes, i had 160,000$ worth of expensive calgary lawyers...

the lawyers would not take instructions, any instrcutions I gave they said find another lawyer or do it there way...
Sigh...

Bitter, high-conflict people who hire shark lawyers and try to "win big" in court are often hit hard by the karma bus. They then try to project blame in any available direction because its easier to them than admitting their own culpability in the situation.

Quote:
while my lawyer was speaking the Judge turning to my X's lawyer mid sentence and telling her council to take a message to her client 'It wont be long now' ...
Paranoia and the feeling like everyone is conspiring against you is a pretty indicative sign of you having some issues.


Tayken and BillM: Thank you for your thoughtful comments. Very well said.
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2012, 01:28 PM
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I only took my x to court once
, for child abuse
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2012, 05:11 PM
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You spent $160,000 and went through multiple lawyers to take your ex to court once?

Who did you divorce, a Kardashian?
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2012, 12:45 AM
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time for a recap :

i posted this topic correctly in the 'political issues'
catogory of this website.

statistics canada 2006 census data was graphed
which shows where upto 2.1 Million children were placed.

also posted was data source where you can download the
data yourself.

the validity of the statistics has been argued with
counter posts.

i have posted some idea's on what a reformed Family Law
might look like to smooth out those graphs, perhaps my
examples of reform were overly simplistic but the concept
of a less 'argumentive' Family Law structure could be used to keep
$ in familys pockets.



where did $160,000 go ? let me squeeze 4 yrs in the following
summary which might give you some insight into why I want reform
and why I believe those graphs tell some truths :


i ran with children from home due to severe abuse, i file emergency protection order, mother files expartee for house,car, custody and police
enforce her order

childrens services put mother under supervision order, i am homeless,
children are put in foster homes, eventually children are placed with me,
order was repeatitly challenged, mother claimed finacially abused then
physically abused and so on. each time in front of a different judge.

mother then hired 2 shrinks, the first one wrote memo's i was a @ss
though they never met me, the other wrote a report with
recommendations and mothers's lawyer ripped the lengthy recommendations off the report and took it to court and litigation continued.

all while litigation is going on a contact schedule for mother and children
is implemented so litigation is not stopping steps towards access.

childrens services was faxed afidavits multiple times - things like
children left home alone, so i had to visit them multiple times.
Children Services report shows no issue children like living with their father.

death by litigation is however crossing my mind. i am struggling financially,
there are binders and binders of materials and filed affadavits accumulating, i am questioning where this goes, i am advised to let the court over turn supervison in due time not before, if she repeats and I did not protect children then Children's Services will take them from me also.

now the argument of 'childs voice' appears , so children are assigned a
lawyer at ages 9,6 and 4. childrens lawyer and mothers's lawyer join and pick a case management Judge. Judge orders every 2nd weekend for mother and every weds evening. mothers lawyer and children lawyer then choose a therapist i am told will 'smooth issues going between the 2 homes and for child safety'.

the argument soon appears that pre-abuse mother was primary caregiver so status quo should be reinstated.

i ask for parallel parenting as I am still receiving materials from mother
like picture of a tombstone.

in final months my children tell me they want to go live with mother, i ask
why and they indicate therapist made them feel sorry mother and told them things like 'girls live with their mothers'.

i tell my lawyer what children are telling me who writes/replys 'nothing i can do about it, they wanted to give her another chance'

so i conceed, i give up - my view is that to continue i would be trying to
hold children by force, as the children exchange hands (oldest first, then
youngest two) its revealed mother has moved out of the city - hence i get 12% access.

judge states joint custody still but indicates 'sole' custody might be more appropriate.

some months later the mother abuses 2 of the children again, the childrens lawyer takes it too court - this is the one court appearance i did initiate, the children's lawyer states they were denied access to their clients but falls short of stating which parent denied access to confirm the allegations and evidence, the Judge suggests the children's lawyer should just resign so they did.

lights out, case closed ...



thats were $160,000 went - structure of custody and access was not clearly defined - there was no road map as to what the end might look like, everything in between start and finish is 'argumentive' and only
litigation would define the final structure - thats wrong !

how about '1 year supervision, take the courses, 2 years every second
weekend then 50/50' , any structure to work toward instead the pit'ing parents against each other.
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 03-29-2012, 03:38 PM
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Statistics relate trends.

Contrary to some points here, the offered study by the OP is as good a place to start as any when considering the social implications of the 'fatherless' child.

I am the first to admit one cannot draw conclusions of causality from this one study, but you are foolish to not consider it as a valuable insight into the problem.

Where does the problem stem from? Well I suggest more study is needed to determine that fact.
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