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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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Old 03-22-2012, 06:10 AM
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Default Stats Canada data: 80/90% custody for women

i graphed the statistics canada 2006 data comparing provinces on lone women (divorced, separated common law, etc ) and lone men whom have children living with them , you can see the graphs and where the data came from here :

http://www.wheretheylie.com/statcan2006.htm

graphed numbers show women have children with them 80% of the time, if there are multiple children as in 3+ in the home than the percent of custody in favor of the female increases and peaks at 91%.

the numbers show right across canada province by province there isnt much flucuation.

these numbers are fact not speculation - you can argue that men die earlier or whatever but that would really just be speculation as to the effect it has on the placement of 1.5 million children indicated by Statistics Canada.

the numbers it shows for Alberta men with children is higher than my experience has indicated, regardless the numbers show reform is overdue.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
i graphed the statistics canada 2006 data comparing provinces on lone women (divorced, separated common law, etc ) and lone men whom have children living with them , you can see the graphs and where the data came from here :

http://www.wheretheylie.com/statcan2006.htm

graphed numbers show women have children with them 80% of the time, if there are multiple children as in 3+ in the home than the percent of custody in favor of the female increases and peaks at 91%.

the numbers show right across canada province by province there isnt much flucuation.

these numbers are fact not speculation - you can argue that men die earlier or whatever but that would really just be speculation as to the effect it has on the placement of 1.5 million children indicated by Statistics Canada.

the numbers it shows for Alberta men with children is higher than my experience has indicated, regardless the numbers show reform is overdue.
The problem with the statistics you rely on is that they don't identify which were the result of a custody and access dispute. The statistic includes all the single parents. It also doesn't show how many men give up custody and access of their children.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:25 AM
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Agree with Tayken. I've lost count of the number of men on this board who come on and state that they are not seeking shared custody (or full custody) because they work shifts, travel for work, etc. Many men simply never seek custody. When a family has been operating with one parent the bread-winner and the other parent the care-giver, it is difficult to change that. It is difficult in court, it is also difficult conceptually for many to even consider a change.

If you look at statistics for families with both parents working, children in school/daycare full time, fathers who sought shared or full access, those statistics would be meaningful.

A retrospecitve observation cannot prove cause and effect. It can only show correlation, not cause. You have far too many lurking variables to form a conclusion. If you are doing this to make a point, you aren't managing.

That doesn't mean to say that the situation is perfectly equal and balanced between genders, but it does mean that if you want to show something, you have to do it in a meaningful way that will be able to withstand analysis.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:50 AM
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Agree with Tayken. I've lost count of the number of men on this board who come on and state that they are not seeking shared custody (or full custody) because they work shifts, travel for work, etc. Many men simply never seek custody. When a family has been operating with one parent the bread-winner and the other parent the care-giver, it is difficult to change that. It is difficult in court, it is also difficult conceptually for many to even consider a change.

If you look at statistics for families with both parents working, children in school/daycare full time, fathers who sought shared or full access, those statistics would be meaningful.

A retrospecitve observation cannot prove cause and effect. It can only show correlation, not cause. You have far too many lurking variables to form a conclusion. If you are doing this to make a point, you aren't managing.

That doesn't mean to say that the situation is perfectly equal and balanced between genders, but it does mean that if you want to show something, you have to do it in a meaningful way that will be able to withstand analysis.
Furthermore, more detailed analysis is avalible from Statistics Canada on divorce.

Vital Statistics - Divorce Database

Divorce: Guide to the latest information

Check this one out:

Family court cases involving child custody, access and support arrangements, 2009/2010

Making Fathers "count":

Making fathers “count”

Profile of child support beneficiaries

The problem with the analysis as Mess pointed out is the sample size for which the statistics are drawn on. The above links are more accurate reports from Statistics Canada but, they all have errors but, the authors note the issues in them.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:42 PM
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to put things in perspective, if every person who ever registered on this website (20,000) was a father an chose not to persue custody and were excluded from the stats it would have little effect on the percentages.

is someone saying fathers dont persue custody in pandemic proportions?

if this was 1944 an the 1/2 million men shipped overseas and their children were removed from the statistics it would still show women are significantly favored.

Last edited by pokeman; 03-22-2012 at 05:43 PM. Reason: mobil device spell issued
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
to put things in perspective, if every person who ever registered on this website (20,000) was a father an chose not to persue custody and were excluded from the stats it would have little effect on the percentages.

is someone saying fathers dont persue custody in pandemic proportions?

if this was 1944 an the 1/2 million men shipped overseas and their children were removed from the statistics it would still show women are significantly favored.
Gee, you're a real whiz with stats and logic.

Give it up already.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:22 PM
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:30 PM
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Gee, you're a real whiz with stats and logic.

Give it up already.
I agree. The argument presented by the OP is a good demonstration of "emotional reasoning".
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Old 03-24-2012, 03:02 PM
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will make a plea here that women who dont want whats in those graphs
for their sons and grandsons an all men at minimum contact their MLA
for reform, there's lots of great websites out there with 'how to'
already posted, like Welcome to the "Canadians For Family Law Reform" website

not sure what reform might look like ?

A) one thing I believe that needs to be legislated is 50/50 access by
default (excluding child abuse cases ) , here's example of why :

lawyers through disclosure are the only profession you will ever encounter that knows exactly how much money you have while selling you a variable length service. lawyers have the tools but the structure they are to build is not well defined and so its argued all along the way.

Compare that to the engineering profession, a bridge is needed to join two communities, it needs to be 2 lanes wide across 'n' feet of water, the structure is defined so an engineer can tell you how much it will cost, how long its going to take and when they can start, engineers dont know how much money you have, they effeciently bid and commit to building a bridge for a fair price.

sound good ?

legislated 50/50 reform is not only fair it gives lawyers the blueprint they are to build and if done right minimizes the '$argument$' as to what child access looks like.

today those profiting from the current model say the structure is 'from the eyes of the child' and then 'one parent got money' and the court doors swing open sometimes for 5+ years and argue 80/20 - 90/10 - 70/30 - 100/0 custody ratios ... not what the child wants at all .

B) i would like to see cap'ed legal fee's for a divorce, if 50/50 is legislated then lawyers are just like engineers, divorces can be profiled and slotted into a catagory (like a 'n' foot wide bridge ) and the cost and time is know up front, not like the 'nerver ending storeys' we have
today.


be weary of anyone opposed to 50/50 what their motives might be $$


--
please take a moment to write your MLA, mark it on your calendar and let them know every month, it only takes a few minutes - be counted
--

till then , fathers view the graphs and make your own decisions - the judges(or lawyers) that placed all those children most likely still active - fight for your children but budget accordingly - my experience and all i know say 'its up hill all the way' , i fought for my children till i ended up in a tent, i feel
to many of us do similar and then with no reserves left then struggle or fail with C/S and/or S/S obligiations severly damaging the family as a whole.

Last edited by pokeman; 03-24-2012 at 03:08 PM. Reason: incomplete sentence
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Old 03-24-2012, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
will make a plea here that women who dont want whats in those graphs for their sons and grandsons an all men at minimum contact their MLA for reform, there's lots of great websites out there with 'how to' already posted, like Welcome to the "Canadians For Family Law Reform" website
Why are you targeting "women" in particular. The problem is with the Family Law system. It isn't women that are the problem. It is the systemic problems in the system. The issue is not about "women" or "grandmothers". It is about families and the systemic problem in the Divorce Act you should be addressing.

Like defining what the "best interests" are. The systemic problem with the best interests rule is that it is open for too much interpretation potentially. That would be something to work towards... Better definition of "best interests" of the children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
not sure what reform might look like ?

A) one thing I believe that needs to be legislated is 50/50 access by
default (excluding child abuse cases ) , here's example of why :
This is already defined in the Children's Law Reform Act, Divorce Act and Criminal Code of Canada. The problem is not 50-50 as that is the default under the law. The problem is systemic issues with people "fighting" over something other than 50-50. A better definition of what constitutes a difference for changing what is already defined in law is needed. Not new law. Just clarification as to how "best interests" test should be applied.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
lawyers through disclosure are the only profession you will ever encounter that knows exactly how much money you have while selling you a variable length service. lawyers have the tools but the structure they are to build is not well defined and so its argued all along the way.
This has nothing to do with Custody and Access of children. It has to do with the governance structure of the legal profession. Take the matter up with the Law Society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
Compare that to the engineering profession, a bridge is needed to join two communities, it needs to be 2 lanes wide across 'n' feet of water, the structure is defined so an engineer can tell you how much it will cost, how long its going to take and when they can start, engineers dont know how much money you have, they effeciently bid and commit to building a bridge for a fair price.
Bad example. Engineering projects often over run budgets. Significantly over budget. Ask the citizens of Alaska about that problem. Also, all engineers have to watch a video of a bridge blowing apart in most university programs. The iron rings that engineers symbolize the errors that are often made in engineering and the responsibility the carry in doing their job. Also, Engineering is only regulated in Ontario. No where else in the world.

I don't really see the connection to what you are trying to argue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
sound good ?
No. Sounds far reaching and unrelated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
legislated 50/50 reform is not only fair it gives lawyers the blueprint they are to build and if done right minimizes the '$argument$' as to what child access looks like.
Already legislated as 50-50. What isn't addressed is the definition of "best interests" and how the law should be applied. It is a systemic problem in the legal system. It isn't a gender problem. It is an "interpretive" problem in applying law.

Best way to fix that is to bring your matter through to final decision like WorkingDad and bring new case law that others can rely upon. Changing legislation is not going to happen. But, if enough "WorkingDad" decisions come into view... Case law will reform family law. That is how the "system" works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
today those profiting from the current model say the structure is 'from the eyes of the child' and then 'one parent got money' and the court doors swing open sometimes for 5+ years and argue 80/20 - 90/10 - 70/30 - 100/0 custody ratios ... not what the child wants at all .
"eyes of the child"? Not familiar with that one. "Best Interests" and "Voice of the Child" are the common titles. Again, the systemic problem is that the system of law is interpretive. But, enough case law has evolved that 50-50 parallel parenting is in effect. The system is changing and it is case law not, legislative reform that is bringing it. Thanks to litigants like WorkingDad... Not reform groups trying to change legislation. I would rather donate to WorkingDad's legal fees than some rouge group that achives nothing other than a bad website.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
B) i would like to see cap'ed legal fee's for a divorce, if 50/50 is legislated then lawyers are just like engineers, divorces can be profiled and slotted into a catagory (like a 'n' foot wide bridge ) and the cost and time is know up front, not like the 'nerver ending storeys' we have
today.
IT IS LEGISLATED. DIVORCE ACT, CLRA, FLR... CCC... What isn't legislated is the systemic problem of the people who miss use the system. 90% of seperations and divorce don't need law... Reasonable people don't do stupid things. What you are focused on is the 10% of stupidity in the family law system. That will never go away even if legislated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
be weary of anyone opposed to 50/50 what their motives might be $$
??

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
--
please take a moment to write your MLA, mark it on your calendar and let them know every month, it only takes a few minutes - be counted
--
MLA? or MP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeman View Post
till then , fathers view the graphs and make your own decisions - the judges(or lawyers) that placed all those children most likely still active - fight for your children but budget accordingly - my experience and all i know say 'its up hill all the way' , i fought for my children till i ended up in a tent, i feel
to many of us do similar and then with no reserves left then struggle or fail with C/S and/or S/S obligiations severly damaging the family as a whole.
Honestly. This is a systemic problem and not a gender one. Stop trying to make it a gender problem. Men are equally to blame in this whole problem.

No, not too many do this. Not enough for the systemic problems to be fixed.

You would be better off suing the solicitor on the other side who advised the other party to make false allegations and see where that ends for you. Or, to take the matter into full trial and get case law put in place that other parents (even women -- gasp!) can leverage to insure that this doesn't happen again.

Post your CanLII.org link to your decision... Then we can talk. Until then... Your story is just that... A story.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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