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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2010, 03:30 PM
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Does that suggest that Ontario judges are encourage to pursue a shared parenting plan first unless one of the parents do not meet the criteria list.... or is the criteria list bias towards mothers and that this presumption is a farce

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Originally Posted by logicalvelocity View Post
I'm aware of the Federal Statute. However, as a starting point in Ontario - Apparently the presumption exists under Section 20 of the Children's Law Reform Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. C.12 For instance:



Many parents who have intact relationships -- Couldn't care less about the cause until their own relationship failed and find themselves on the outside looking in when it comes to their children.

Considering Divorce statistic hovering about 50% - some will be on board soon enough.
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Old 05-25-2010, 04:01 PM
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Does that suggest that Ontario judges are encourage to pursue a shared parenting plan first unless one of the parents do not meet the criteria list....
To me - it suggests Justice Ingrim of the S.C.J views...as quoted from the media article:

Quote:
...Under the Children’s Law Reform Act, a mother and father are equally entitled to custody of a child. When an access dispute breaks out, judges use a list of criteria to determine whether or not to depart from an equal-access regime.

Judge Ingram ruled that Ms. Johne and Mr. Cavannah’s child would be best served by a 50/50 access arrangement....
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or is the criteria list bias towards mothers and that this presumption is a farce
Thats an entirely different subject. Just to clarify - Is the "criteria list" Section 24 of the CLR as enumerated?

Last edited by logicalvelocity; 05-25-2010 at 04:15 PM. Reason: corrected link - stuff happens
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:05 PM
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If you have a situation with one breadwinner out of the house working and one caregiver who is stay-at-home, then there will be a bias toward giving more custody to the stay-at-home. Essentially this is tracing status quo back to when the marriage was intact. The argument is that the childrens' lives are less disrupted, the working parent has less experience with childcare and has probably been less involved all along.

If that's not true, then the working parent has to show it. The judge wasn't there in the home with them 24/7 and has to go by what seems likely.

The situation right now seems to be, shared parenting where all else was equal, ie both parents were working out of the home. Where one parent was stay-at-home, then from what articles and statistics I've seen, the custody will end up mainly with the stay-at-home.

Is this gender bias or is it role-playing bias?

Now the question, "Should the default be 50/50 shared parenting when the situation during marriage was not 50/50", that is a different question and I don't have an answer for it.
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
If you have a situation with one breadwinner out of the house working and one caregiver who is stay-at-home, then there will be a bias toward giving more custody to the stay-at-home. Essentially this is tracing status quo back to when the marriage was intact. The argument is that the childrens' lives are less disrupted, the working parent has less experience with childcare and has probably been less involved all along.

If that's not true, then the working parent has to show it. The judge wasn't there in the home with them 24/7 and has to go by what seems likely.

The situation right now seems to be, shared parenting where all else was equal, ie both parents were working out of the home. Where one parent was stay-at-home, then from what articles and statistics I've seen, the custody will end up mainly with the stay-at-home.
Interesting... Is that the truth behind the statistics we see with mothers receiving the majority of custody awards? The large percentage of them are stay-home moms? If you factor that out, are the outcomes more in favor of shared parenting? Can you point me out a resources you've seen that suggest that... I'd be really interested in seeing those numbers..
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:24 PM
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Some specified statistics. Bala et al.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/fcy-...cfjs-sjfae.pdf
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Old 06-13-2010, 07:01 PM
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This somewhat saddens me that this particular thread, regarding Bill C-422, has received little attention here online. This Bill represent a potential for great change and bring restore the concept of "equality" in the eyes of the law.

It's depressing to here stories about good parents wanting to be part of their children's lives but are finding no justice in a system that is suppose to treat them equally. What's even more depressing to see the lack of support from many of these dads to work towards making change in our democratic system. If you don't like the rules that you've been force to play with, than work towards changing the rules...

Support Bill C-422 by writing to your MP and encouraging your friends/family to do the same.
Sorry I'm late to get on the train, but I'm here now, and contacting Rob Nicholson as I write this, what else needs to be done? Maybe a march on the Hill. Where is the best place to keep updated?

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Interesting... Is that the truth behind the statistics we see with mothers receiving the majority of custody awards? The large percentage of them are stay-home moms? If you factor that out, are the outcomes more in favor of shared parenting? Can you point me out a resources you've seen that suggest that... I'd be really interested in seeing those numbers..
I am for any petition, but what about demonstrations, I've thought about putting a sign on myself and walking up and down the courts side walks. What about about marching on Parliament Hill to support this Bill? I would help in anyway possible from my end.

Speaking of Private members bills, what are the chances and has it gone through any readings? What stage? These things tend to die out after the second.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EqualParent View Post
Interesting... Is that the truth behind the statistics we see with mothers receiving the majority of custody awards? The large percentage of them are stay-home moms? If you factor that out, are the outcomes more in favor of shared parenting? Can you point me out a resources you've seen that suggest that... I'd be really interested in seeing those numbers..
I am for any petition, but what about demonstrations, I've thought about putting a sign on myself and walking up and down the courts side walks. What about about marching on Parliament Hill to support this Bill? I would help in anyway possible from my end.

Speaking of Private members bills, what are the chances and has it gone through any readings? What stage? These things tend to die out after the second.

Last edited by Mess; 07-29-2012 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 06-15-2010, 08:41 PM
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c/p

From:

VellaM0@parl.gc.ca email


The following article appeared in today's National Post. Responses to the letter are greatly encouraged. You can submit letters online on the NP website here: Letters | Contact | National Post or send them to letters@nationalpost.com.

---

Tasha Kheiriddin, National Post · Tuesday, Jun. 15, 2010

Tomorrow, June 16, is a day that has come far too quickly: my daughter Zara's first birthday. It is a time to pause and reflect on the joys and craziness of parenting, and on the realization that Zara will never again repeat her first steps and first words (no, not Mama or Dada, but "car". Oh well, at least the kid knows what she likes).

Her birthday also falls less than a week before Father's Day, and thus also brought to mind a piece of legislation before Parliament which would radically change child custody and access laws in Canada: Bill C-422.

This private member's bill, introduced by Conservative MP Maurice Vellacott, would amend the Divorce Act to mandate "equal shared parenting" when parents split up. Courts would start from the presumption that parents share time with the kids and decision making on a 50-50 basis, and put the legal onus on parents to show that such an arrangement would not be in the child's best interest.

Before I had a baby, I would probably have supported this legislation. Who would deny a child the right to the equal love and care of both parents? Why do mothers get custody so much more often than fathers?

Raising an infant as a single parent for the past year, however, has changed my opinion. Not because I think that children don't need fathers, but because I realize that they need each parent in different ways at different stages of development. And unfortunately, Bill C-422 presumes that equal parenting is best regardless of circumstance, including the age of the child.

Children are constantly changing, and what may work for a 12-year-old may hurt a two-year-old. Case in point: shared physical custody. A pre-teen can fully understand that when he stays with mom one week and dad the next, he will be seeing mom again soon. But an infant cannot grasp this fact. Even a toddler is unable to fully verbalize desires and feelings, while teenagers, if I recall the drama I put my own parents through, are only too able to express themselves.

When it comes to very young children, the presumption of the bill contradicts the first law of every parenting book on Earth: Disrupt a baby's routine as little as possible. Expert after expert advises parents to establish one sleep routine, nap routine and meal routine, and to ease young children slowly into transitions, such as moving house or mommy going back to work. They further warn that vacations -- or any time away overnight from home -- will prove disruptive. Indeed, what parents haven't returned from a trip with their tots only to find that they suddenly won't sleep through the night, or cling to your leg like Saran Wrap?

Add to that the advice of the medical community that breastfeeding is best for infants under one year. As a mother who nursed for that time, I can testify only too well that breastfeeding is about much more than food. It is about comfort-- when baby cannot sleep or is sick, teething or cranky. No offence, dads, but there are some things men just cannot do. Separating a breastfeeding infant from its mother is just plain cruel, never mind impossible if the child refuses to drink from a bottle.

Which brings us back to Bill C-422. Equal shared parenting would mean that very young children could be constantly shuttled back and forth between their parents' homes. Breast here, bottle there, stay-at-home parent here, daycare there. This type of endless transitioning will do them no favours -- in fact, it can do a lot of damage. Courts can already order these kinds of arrangements, even without shared parenting rules, and there is mounting evidence that the stress hurts a young child's ability to attach to either parent, and to other people in general.

Bill C-422 would make this type of arrangement even more common at a time when other jurisdictions are questioning this model. Case in point: The Australian government, which four years ago introduced mandatory equal parenting legislation, is currently under pressure to revise its laws in the wake of several damning reports. Researchers found that not only were some children at risk of being placed in violent situations, but even children who were physically safe felt depressed, stressed and confused, and suffered adjustment problems. They also found that some fathers' motivation in seeking shared custody was not to bond with their children, but to reduce the amount of child support they had to pay.

A consistent theme in child psychological literature is that children under the age of three need stability to grow up to be well-adjusted and confident adults. In Zara's case, she is fortunate to have a father who gets that, and puts her needs ahead of his "right" to take her overnight alone, even under current laws. Until she is ready for overnights, Zara visits with him regularly at her home in the GTA and at his home in Montreal, with both parents present. Now one year old, Zara recognizes her father, greets him with her sunny smile, calls him Dada and is happy in his presence and his arms -- all without suffering the anxiety of being torn from one parent to another at a young age.

Granted, this type of arrangement takes compromise by both mom and dad, and would not work for everyone, but isn't that the point? Imposing a universal shared parenting presumption, with equal time regardless of age or situation, is not in the best interests of children. Respecting their stages of development is, and so is allowing parents to come up with their own solutions.

I hope our lawmakers will allow other fractured families the same latitude, and defeat Bill C-422 or amend it to respect the needs of very young children, and other special circumstances. Until then, happy birthday Zara, and happy Father's Day, Ian. You both deserve the best celebrations a daughter and dad can have.

tkheiriddin@nationalpost.com

Read more: Sometimes unequal works
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:24 PM
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Blah blah blah...Holy tender years doctrine.

And there are some things that Dads do better than Moms, like throwing a baseball.

OK, set up the law to provide for mandatory 50/50 access when the child turns one. And when the child gets to age 7, keep him/her with Dad for a year in order to round them into sports shape...because Mom throws like a girl.

Did those researchers also find that some mothers' motivation in breastfeeding well past a year old was not to bond with their children, but to increase the amount of child support they received? Nice character attack thrown in there to cement your argument Tasha.

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Old 06-15-2010, 10:39 PM
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The article is so slanted it makes my neck hurt trying to read it.

There are "best" situations to raise children. I'm sure 99.9% of parents want the "best" for their children. Not a single parent is able to provide this theoretical "best" in all catagories. We have to make choices, compromises, not to mention mistakes. Somehow our children thrive despite not having everything be the "best" choice.

The "best" choice is for a child to have full 7 day a week access to two involved parents, not mention a supportive extended family. Divorce precludes the "best" choice. More time spent with the mother is better for the mother/child relationship and bonding, at the expense of the father/child relationship. This isn't "best". It's one possibility that is not "better" than a shared parenting arrangement.
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Old 06-15-2010, 11:20 PM
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The parent's view is behind the times and is not supported by empirical infant child development research such as Kelly/Lamb or for that matter - For the Sake of the Children.


http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublicat...&Parl=36&Ses=1

Last edited by logicalvelocity; 06-15-2010 at 11:26 PM.
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