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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2013, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fireweb13 View Post
As PH is saying though, its biology. Men just should not do it unless they want to make a baby. No amount of precaution matters as it can happen. Though she can make the decision for their combined fetus because its in her.
I completely agree with you.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2013, 01:35 PM
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Its irrelevant. Everyone can have an opinion but the one that matters is made by the woman who has to decide whether or not to host and bear a fetus. Her body, her choice...whether you like it or not.
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Old 11-12-2013, 01:37 PM
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I am not, nor do I think anyone else here is saying that women should not have control of their own biological entity.

I will point out, that no person (under law) has complete control of their own bodies.

It is illegal to commit suicide. It is illegal to consume drugs. One must wear a helmet, or a seat-belt.

However, a woman's choice of what to do with her own body should not be confused with it being anything but her own choice. And she should be responsible for that decision. Completely on her own, without legally obligated 'support' for that decision in the form of monies (or anything else) from a man.

Strictly academic argument above.

I believe most men (if given the choice to 'opt out') would end up regretting that decision, and eventually seek some sort of father's rights.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2013, 01:45 PM
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I think the point a lot of people miss on this topic is the actual definition of the term "discrimination".

1 - Treating equal things as unequal. For example:

A female employee doing the same job as a male employee for the same amount of time within the same company should be compensated equally.

A female parent should have the same rights as a male parent.

2 - Treating unequal things as equal. For example:

A female employee doing the same job as a male employee for 6 months vs his 10 years at the same company should not be compensated equally based on experience level and tenure.

A woman has a uterus and the capability of carrying a child. A man does not, however giving a man the right to determine what a woman can do with her uterus is discriminatory, as would be giving a woman the right to determine what a man does with his sperm, or the right to inflict sterilization on him.

A man has just as much right to choose where he leaves his seeds laying around. If he chooses to leave them with a woman, what right does he have to dictate what she can or cannot do with the biological results within her body?

Men and women are well aware of how babies are conceived and the results of donig so. If they do not want the responsibility of decisions that come with the responsibility of having sex then don't have sex, get sterilized, provide your own protection or actually DO something about it beforehand, instead of complaining afterwards.

This argument that 'she said she was on birth control' is moot, when it is up to the man as well to ensure he is protected. If he's that concerned, why leave it to chance or someone else to ensure that he is protected?

Men and women's bodies are not equal, to treat them as they are is discriminatory. Until men's and women's bodies are capable of doing the same things, they will never be equal. All the argument and debate in the world will never change that.
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Old 11-12-2013, 01:47 PM
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Why is biology only an arguement when it comes to a woman and fetus?
If thats the case, why don't we have the same physical fitness tests for things.
Here is an interesting webpage I found.
FORCES.CA - Training

Fire service strength and fitness tests relaxed to allow more women to become firefighters | Mail Online

I am not going to keep searching, but it appears that biology has alot to do with how we are treated....
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2013, 01:48 PM
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Because treating unequal things as equal is discriminatory.
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Old 11-12-2013, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
I will point out, that no person (under law) has complete control of their own bodies.
But people (unless they are incapacitated and their POA does it) do have the right to control medical decisions and that's what this decision is about.

Quote:
Completely on her own, without legally obligated 'support' for that decision in the form of monies (or anything else) from a man.
I agree that you shouldn't have to pay SS to a woman that decides to give birth but CS is the right of the child.
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Old 11-12-2013, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkandimgone View Post
Because treating unequal things as equal is discriminatory.

I agree. Problem being that people pick and chose when to treat unequal things equally and when they don't want to.
So does the biology of a mother make her a better caregiver and more loving to a child and better able to take care of it? Moms different than Dad and since begining of time Mom was the person who took care of the babies.
Does it make Dad better able to provide for the family? If so why don't men make more so they can do that.

Didn't we move forward from women staying home and raising children and men being the only ones who work?
One parent decides they wish to not have a child so they abort the families fetus. The other parent wants a child but has no choice as the family fetus has been aborted without their consultation. Why did one parent get to chose? Because they were trusted to incubate it for 9 months? If after childbirth a childs mother decides to leave can the father chose to kill the child for a period of 9 months because thats what mom was allowed to do?
Please don't get me wrong, I think that if someone wants an abortion they should have the choice to get one. But I think that within a defined period of time (the same period that a mother can get an abortion) the father should be able to sign away all legal rights to being a father.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2013, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Why did one parent get to chose?
Because when a woman's right to dominion over her own body are in conflict with the rights of a biological parasite who isn't yet sentient, it makes sense that her rights supercede. Women shouldn't be forced to carry fetuses against their will.

Quote:
If after childbirth a childs mother decides to leave can the father chose to kill the child for a period of 9 months because thats what mom was allowed to do?
If the kid suddenly latches onto and crawls up inside the father's body and tries to live off of his internal resources for 9 months...then yes. However, if the child is self-sustaining and living on its own than it has a different set of rights.

Quote:
..the father should be able to sign away all legal rights to being a father.
Again, no one can force a man to be a father. Quite insulting to compare paying CS to being a father. What can be forced is a financial obligation to the child for willfully making a bad sexual decision and not wearing protection.

Sexual decisions have consequences. By the way, another unfortunate fact about biology for women is that they're far more likely to contract AIDS when making a irresponsible sexual decision and not making a man wear a condom.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2013, 02:21 PM
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Ah yes, the firefighter argument. What's going on with these tests is that the qualifying requirements for the job are being changed so that they are better aligned with the actual work of the job. There's a whole science to determining what are the "bona fide occupational requirements" for any given job, and then figuring out how to measure these in order to qualify potential candidates.

In firefighting, the arrival of new technologies and lighter materials has meant that the amount of brute upper-body strength necessary to be an effective firefighter is less than it used to be with the older technologies. This has the additional benefit of opening up the job to more people (including women, but not only women). It's not a question of "watering down" requirements in order to get more women into the profession, but of recognizing that obsolete entrance requirements were locking people out (including women, whose strength tends to be concentrated in the lower body rather than the upper).

This gets spun by traditionalists as "we're lowering our standards just to be politically correct!", but that's not actually what's going on. I'm a reasonably strong woman and there is no way I could qualify to be a firefighter, nor could most of my male friends.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fireweb13 View Post
Why is biology only an arguement when it comes to a woman and fetus?
If thats the case, why don't we have the same physical fitness tests for things.
Here is an interesting webpage I found.
FORCES.CA - Training

Fire service strength and fitness tests relaxed to allow more women to become firefighters | Mail Online
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