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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 09-06-2017, 06:48 PM
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These are honestly some of the weakest arguments against 50/50 custody I've ever read, and the idea that you're able to make them and be serious about it, is troubling.
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 09-06-2017, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Soiled View Post
These are honestly some of the weakest arguments against 50/50 custody I've ever read, and the idea that you're able to make them and be serious about it, is troubling.
Where did I say I was against 50-50?

(spoiler: nowhere)

I am against cookie-cutter parenting plans that don't take into account things like, say, long commutes all because it is 'fair' for the parents. Kids are not a pie to be divided in half just because an adults can't let their ego consider of any other scenario.

I am also pointing out (rightly) that LF keeps on harping on 'equality' when he doesn't actually believe in equality or believe for any actual societal changes that would make real, tangible differences in promoting women's active participation in the workforce. All of his posts are tactical ('judges love it when you X, Y and Z!!') and anecdotal ('My grandma! My daughter!' etc). Call me when he canvasses for a female candidate or opens a daycare with subsidised spots.
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 09-06-2017, 09:44 PM
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You're arguing with LF and against his 'harping on equality, in the context of this thread, meaning 50/50. If your intention wasn't to present yourself as being against it, then unfortunately you failed, as at least one person has taken it that way.

You've gone and presented the ridiculous assertion that that if he believes in promoting equal parenting, it is somehow invalid unless he has also spent time promoting women in the workforce. Those items are only vaguely related, and each one is most definitely not contingent upon the other.

As for your issues with 'cookie cutter parenting plans', you have to have a baseline to start with, so I, and most other reasonable folks, would say that it's better to start with a baseline of equality, rather than a baseline that favors one parent over the other, for no real reason.
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Old 09-06-2017, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
Yes, you did (not sure if you see mothers as women but I do)











Awesome. Did they make the same amount as the men in their lives? Did they have benefits, pensions, flexible work hours, career trajectories and all the nice things that come when you've been at the workforce for a long stretch and can command these things? My mother also worked but with a special needs child and a husband on shift work her career options were very limited. If they had split up she would have been even more screwed.



Not everyone lives in Ottawa where government jobs and benefits are aplenty. And women, even working women, fare worse off in divorce https://www.theatlantic.com/business...ce-gap/480333/



If you're not advocating for equality from the start (as in, when the kids are babies), then your arguments are moot. All of them. Unless there are structural options in place (e.g. affordable, quality daycare starting at 12 months) and you can show me that you've pressed for them, then you really don't stand behind any form of equality. You can wax poetic about how you stayed up until 3am plotting to get your daughter but for the rest of 'us', this is represents only a small slice of the problem.


My two cents is that sometimes women have a lot to be disgruntled over. It's true that we are still a long way away from true equality. I make about 40 grand less per year than my ex and I have 4 years of university and he has none. I honestly can't even see what his job requires that is any more difficult/taxing/important than mine, yet that's the salary difference. I also took the hit on my pension when I stayed home on mat leaves. He did very, very, very little to contribute to family life in the early days of children, preferring to work overtime daily and bank those hours even though I made it known to him that his family would rather have him at home instead of making money to afford his car collection. I ran the whole operation at home but that's unfortunately not often looked upon as a valuable contribution because it's not necessarily measurable in dollars. Do I think that after divorce I deserve to live an "equalized" lifestyle as I afforded before? You bet your ass I do. But I'd bet there are guys on here who think I shouldn't be collecting full table support when I remarried and have a dual income household. My poor ex with his six figures salary who can't afford his cars anymore....
The system is never going to get better if we have such wage disparity and repercussions for women to either stay at home with the kids or work full time. We need more feminist dads!!


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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 09-06-2017, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Ange71727 View Post
My two cents is that sometimes women have a lot to be disgruntled over. It's true that we are still a long way away from true equality. I make about 40 grand less per year than my ex and I have 4 years of university and he has none. I honestly can't even see what his job requires that is any more difficult/taxing/important than mine, yet that's the salary difference. I also took the hit on my pension when I stayed home on mat leaves. He did very, very, very little to contribute to family life in the early days of children, preferring to work overtime daily and bank those hours even though I made it known to him that his family would rather have him at home instead of making money to afford his car collection. I ran the whole operation at home but that's unfortunately not often looked upon as a valuable contribution because it's not necessarily measurable in dollars. Do I think that after divorce I deserve to live an "equalized" lifestyle as I afforded before? You bet your ass I do. But I'd bet there are guys on here who think I shouldn't be collecting full table support when I remarried and have a dual income household. My poor ex with his six figures salary who can't afford his cars anymore....
The system is never going to get better if we have such wage disparity and repercussions for women to either stay at home with the kids or work full time. We need more feminist dads!!


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Your comparing apples to oranges. You didn't state what occupations your in, but based on the educational differences, I'll take a wild guess and say your not even in the same field in terms of jobs... You can't take two people in different jobs, find an income difference, and then cry inequality.

For the rest of your complaints about having had to stay at home, the same thing applies to you, as is stated to any guy who complains about a wife who never went back to work. You chose him, you married him, you stayed with him as long as you did, it's self inflicted.
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2017, 12:02 AM
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i'll throw my 2 cents in.

Once my son was independent/out of school I decided to groove my golf game and took lessons, golfed competitively. I was a low-handicapped golfer and was fortunate to be a shareholder in an exclusive club. I observed, over a ten year period, how couples with 6+ 7+incomes lived. The men, those hard working guys, typically took clients out 5 or 6 times a week to golf and wine and dine. This would go on for not just 5 hours but into the late night (I usually returned to the club later in the day or early evening for lessons.). Meanwhile, the wives were up early to take kids to school, might fit in a 9-holes (2 hrs) and quick early lunch afterwards. They couldn't dawdle as they had to go pick up the kids and schlep the kids to lessons or whatever. Often the wives had jobs as well. Even though they were very wealthy, not all employed housekeepers. Most, if not all, had to do the shopping for the family. Evenings were spent doing homework or participating in children's activities. I know this because I couldn't get many to volunteer on golf-related things. Yes they lived in mansions and drove nice cars. The men had it super easy in comparison to the women they married. Men came home to spotless homes, children excelling in their school and sports and, of course, beautiful wives.

Most of the women had careers prior to marriage. They abandoned their careers to raise families together with their husbands.

These women, after years of being out of the workforce, are certainly not able to pick up their careers and make the same income as the colleagues they once worked with. Not a chance.

In wealthy marriages the wife is usually compensated. What happens in a situation where there aren't stock options and cottages and homes in the US to divide up? Poverty. Men continue on and women are left at the mercy of their children. This is the reality of things.

Often when men replace their wives for a newer model the new model is much younger... sometimes the new model comes with her own children and often the new model and the older man start a new family. What happens to the discarded wife?

This too is very much a reality that many women face today.

Oh and I forgot to add: Most of these women either worked and put their husbands through university or they toiled away in the family business at the same time as looking after the home and children. Some actually had inheritances and financed their husband's businesses. Success was a joint-venture. These women certainly weren't slackers.

Last edited by arabian; 09-07-2017 at 12:10 AM. Reason: additional thought
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2017, 12:29 AM
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I just read this article. Makes one really think. The male-dominated attitude in many cultures against women's independence and success. Unfortunately, this attitude is present in Canada and a reality that women face "...wives devote their complete attention to their husbands and children....":

https://qz.com/1064758/sehat-kahani-...nd-work-again/
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2017, 01:20 AM
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I didn't say gender inequality doesn't exist. Just not to the scale that some make out.

The good news is a substantial amount of money is being put in to it by our government, which again illustrates how much support individuals have these days to get up on their feet. It's just not the same as the past. Status of Women Canada
Policy on Gender Equality

I'll admit that I haven't studied feminism and/or gender equality.

My issue in this thread are comments that make it sound as if father's shouldn't pursue a 50/50 relationship with their kids, like referring to the kids as pieces of pie. Studies and stats show that these pieces of pie fare better when two loving, involved parents are there as much as possible.

Pursuing an equal relationship with your child should be encouraged and posters like enscrolled have some very ignorant views on the matter.

Quote:
And I seriously laughed out loud when you suggested that all of us trucking back to the workforce once the kids are in school.
Enscrolled, perhaps you should go read the resources I provided outlining all of the support and services offered to women in every crevasse of life. Including leadership skills to create their own future:
Quote:
“We welcome the Government of Canada's support for this initiative. It is going to make a big difference by allowing young women to gain and use the leadership skills that they need to create their own futures, and continue to develop as valued community leaders.”

Heather Barnabe
Chief Executive Officer (CEO)
G(irls)20
You can laugh all you want but returning to the workforce when your children have began school and the house is empty .. is quite rational and normal.

In life there is a myriad of choices. You can choose to put your hard feelings for your ex aside and put your kids first .. or you can complain about rainboots and rant all day about small things.

Yes, more father's are fighting for equal relationships with their children. Some deserving, some not, yet not all mothers deserve their children either.

When the smoke clears the point is that the literature and the caselaw illustrates that "in general" when both parents are involved as much as possible and work as business partners for their kids, the kids fare better. I hope this isn't news to you enscrolled.

Last edited by LovingFather32; 09-07-2017 at 01:43 AM.
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2017, 09:15 AM
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Too bad more fathers didn't want to be involved 50% of the time (at the least) prior to separation. Absentee (previously non-involved) parents who miraculously want to become involved in their children's lives, immediately upon separation, raise my suspicions. Hard to be convinced whether or not it's for purely financial reasons or if a light-bulb comes on and they realize the errors of their ways in the past for not spending any time with children. I think this is what gets many women's goat. "The SOB couldn't bother his ass to show up before midnight all those years and now he wants to be super-dad." Then, when father does get 50/50, one finds out that he really isn't spending any more time with the children he just has a new g/f/slave to step into the ex-wife's role as primary caregiver in his absence. Often kids don't like this because the new arrangement forces them to be with a stranger (non-parent) along with that person's children. Dad doesn't care. It just works into his work schedule and he doesn't have to pay as much child support.

Last edited by arabian; 09-07-2017 at 09:19 AM.
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2017, 09:33 AM
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My situation actually shows the stereotype perfectly. I am an elementary school teacher - a typically female dominated job. My ex is a cop - a typically male oriented job. Why is it that we would have a $40,000 discrepancy between us? I certainly had to pay for more schooling to achieve my position. I also work the same hours in a month (or more). Since we've divorced it's been nothing but problems because he doesn't think his hard earned dollars should go to me. He is even fighting currently to write into the new agreement that his kids will be "cut off" from support at the age of 18, full time school or not (he will lose that one). Everything is about money money money.
If my new husband and I were to separate, there'd be no support to me as we make the same amount. Would probably alleviate a lot of grief.
As for the baseline being 50/50. Sure, this is great and I think it should absolutely be the norm. My problem is with these guys who think they can just come into the picture years later and demand an equal relationship all of a sudden to reduce support. This is exactly what happened in my case. He blows into the scene, demands more time, threatens court and walks away with a 2% increase in time and $5000 less per year to pay in support. Mission accomplished for him!
Is it fair? Not to me.
Perhaps if a guy isn't willing to take on his kids half the time right from the start, the penalty should be full table support. Then he'd be coming for his kids later for the right reasons.


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