My reason for being here

[AtALoss]

Yes I have questions too and everyone for the most part has been very helpful, so thank you to all. I also have an agenda and some have commented about that. I can't appologise for that if some feel that this is not acceptable. My purpose is to find others that have had misdealings with FRO. Plain and simple. at what ever level.

Our lawyer has requested that we take on this task in reinforcing our case. Originally it was our impression that 60% of FRO cases were mishandled in some manner. His estimate is more like 80%

I know I am going to open a can of worms with my next statement. FRO has extended their label just a little to far with "dead beat dads" If you look at their statistics there are very few that are actually so. They want to justify themselves by getting us to believe all you Dad's are so.

Many of you have learned about my new spouse's story and his fight against the FRO through my talk and his blog.

Richard's space - Windows Live

At least I hope so. We have a long hard fight ahead. And what we really need is your support an story. It is my hope to hear from you that are out there so please write me back. PM would work great.

Thanks again to all here and lets all keep this good thing going.

[logicalvelocity]

A good site to check out is the Ontario Ombudsman Site. One of their mandates is to investigate complaints against provincial ministries such as the FRO division of the Ministry of Community and Social Services. Last time I checked, they were some interesting reading over there with respect to this issue.


Ombudsman Ontario — Welcome to the Ombudsman of Ontario Website


lv

[AtALoss]

Oh most definately, I reccommend that to all as well. We currently have gone through thier process. His case is being monitored by them. The only draw back for us is that we are currently in litigation against FRO and they cannot legally step in. On the other hand if a person were not they most certainly can attempt to get results. So I highly reccomend speaking to them even for just some guidance. They are aware but need to know that there are more like us out there as well.

Our personal case knocked their socks off and they have been nothing but very helpful. If anyone is inclined to contact them I could refer the person who is monitoring us.

You name them and we have talked to them. I say that as it amazes me at the attitudes we have encountered though.

[HCA]

I would be willing to sign up and have requested that the Ombudsman to a complete investigation of FRO governance, organizational incompetence and administration or lack thereof of cases. If the estimates are correct that between 60-80% of cases are screwed up due to ignorance of procedure, incompetence of staff or outright organizational ineffectiveness, this department needs a serious audit. If they were in the private sector they would be out of business by now. With a budget of over 50 Million dollars, this organization is not neutral in any way. As it is a public department there is an ethical obligation to support everyone equally, which all know that the FRO does not do. It is not value added right now and actually puts up more barriers than its breaks down.

This leads to a bigger issue of realigning the law regarding divorce and child access/support and custody. There needs to be a serious look done by Parliament into what is a fair system to all.

It’s not about support payer or recipient, it’s about the fact an govt agency has a range of tremendous powers and wields them without any oversight at all. I encourage all that have had an issue with the FRO to email the ombudsman office and/or MPP in order to get the spotlight shined on this government entity, which has gone rogue in my opinion.

[AtALoss]

These wheels are turning in more ways than one.

Please bear in mind that I was not privy to these discussions so I am going on hearsay as to what they were about. There already exists some acknowledgement that FRO needs to be overhauled. There have beem recent meeting dealing with this, one of the areas of discussion has been looking at how other countries etc, How their systems are set up. It appears that FRO(Ontario) is severly behind the times in that Canada is pretty much the only country left using a system such as ours. Other countries are using what I will call a "central registry". What their role is is basically a clearing house. You walk in with your order what ever stage it is at. We will say you at the end of paying. Now they will take your documents statements what ever is required, Verify it by birth, school records , again what ever is needed. and basically X days later you (say as a payor) are done released what ever you set out to have accomplished. There will be no more court, motions to vary and endless years of heart ache and expense to all. The intent is to simplify this down to something as easy as processing a driver's license.
Adjustments up or down etc don't need to be the hassle that they are. You have the income verifiction (your pay stubs) CRA Records again what they need. and away you go. Why do we need to tie up the courts with so much of this kind of thing.
To me, a system such as this makes infinite sense. It would eliminate the need for Payors to hide etc when the would know that they can get resolution in a timely manner. It would also help to eliminate a recipiants under-handedness. A system like this I think would do away with alot of the games that are played and ultimately see that everyone is treated fairly.

FRO and like agencies in this country are not following the accountability act in thier practices. I have heard stories where a recipiant (child approx 25) was contacted by FRO and told that they owe several years worth of support to a payor. This recipiant never recieved any money over the years and FRO is trying to reverse that original order. My spouse, FRO tried to enforce an order that expired in 2002. One man who paid 43000 to FRO and the recipiant never got that money. And then countless others who have just over paid and recipiants that are not recieving. All boils down to what is FRO doing with this money?????

[FreeNow]

I am disturbed by this and will be contacting my MPP - Dalton.
I will cc.

FN

[AtALoss]

The Office of the Ombudsman of Ontario is fully aware of our personal situation. It really is my hope that others that have stories to tell with regard to FRO will come forward and contact the Ombudsman.

It really depends where one is personally with their case whether they can actually do something. Like us if you are currently in litigation well they cant really get involved other than monitoring. Once done that is a very different story. How many can really afford the lawyers? Not many Like my spouse many have fallen between the cracks. It is surprising the people we have met that have traveled our road and have little hope of seing the end as they cannot afford progress in their case. Just what FRO wants I think.

But such government offices NEED to be made aware of what is really happening. We have contacted everyone down the line from ou PM to our local MP. It is amazing the attitudes that we have encountered. from we cant get involved to our local mp saying you must be lying. Point being that enough of us do come forward this will have to change and maybe they will see for real what is happening around them.

[dadtotheend]

You have taken up a great cause. Very sadly, the pendulum has swung too far on this issue. There can be no doubt that the pendulum was too far on the other side before the FRO existed, and their mandate was well intentioned and badly needed at a time.

There can also be no doubt that the actions of the FRO are draconion. They shoot and let you ask questions later. Their "Deadbeat Dad" angle is not just about defending their actions. It is also about who they are, plain and simple.

Reprehensible.

[AtALoss]

Hi Dadtotheend
Thank you for your reply and support in such a sensitive issue.
I will not dispute the need for such an organization. unfortunately there are too many issues and on both sides that have need for such. It really is there methods that we object to. It really does not have to be the way it is. In our hearts we believe that it is time to take the ellement of conflict out of Family Law. If everyone from the top up could stop with these kinds of practices everyone could settle down some and maybe one day be more coopertive. The way things are presently just fuels the fire. We have our thoughts on what we would like to see in terms of reform. There are many in govt and law that are in agreement and have similar thoughts. However you look at it since my spouses case is so extreme and he is passionate about this he has to be and will be the one to open the door for this reform to happen. I think Most Moms and Dads out there truely love are kids and just want what is best for them. Just they way things are is so contradictory to what everyones goals were supposed to be.

[dadtotheend]

You're absolutely right about the conflict element of family law.

Unfortunately it's about the best interests of the system not the children, and the people (parliament) who make rules about the system are largely the same ones (lawyers) who came up through it and realize that they would be killing a golden goose if they did something sensible e.g. forcing everyone to go through mediation or collaborative family and removing the adversarial option from them.

As for the FRO, well it seems to me (and I have had little direct but lots of indirect dealings with them) that they are a bunch of man-haters. Their caseload is also ridiculously high.