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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 02-21-2014, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS Mom View Post
Well said on FRO. They're a lovely bunch of coconuts aren't they?
Yes, I am having a snow day, as I have 4 ft of new snow at my doorstep and so I was brain storming what is essentially the big problem with FRO and I had this thought. There is no money to be made for the government so they have little or no interest in a functioning system.

Maybe they should link FRO into the CRA system. You apply for tax credits and in the same way you could apply for CS payments to be made or received. I need a copy of the ex NOA i do need to ask. I merely send a request to CRA account and they cross reference my court order and email me a copy. Done! No ignored requests, no frustration and no wait. Of course there are those who do not submit tax returns, do not work, cannot be found, but they are small % of the general population and there would be more time for,the authorities to spend tracking them down.

Its too simple for a policitician to figure out.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 02-21-2014, 04:21 PM
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FRO should at least get on-line like we have it in Alberta

24 hr online access

Both parties can see the payments go through the system
Both parties can print out records from past 2 years - no need to call anyone
Annual child recalculation program - no need to go to court every year
All collection/enforcement actions are visible
You can email and request a call back for a specific time of day

You can also make an appointment and go in and talk to a human. Imagine that?

On the other hand, MEP Alberta says they have no "file ownership" so you are not assigned a case worker - you deal with whomever picks up the phone.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 02-21-2014, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by arabian View Post
FRO should at least get on-line like we have it in Alberta

24 hr online access

Both parties can see the payments go through the system
Both parties can print out records from past 2 years - no need to call anyone
Annual child recalculation program - no need to go to court every year
All collection/enforcement actions are visible
You can email and request a call back for a specific time of day

You can also make an appointment and go in and talk to a human. Imagine that?

On the other hand, MEP Alberta says they have no "file ownership" so you are not assigned a case worker - you deal with whomever picks up the phone.
But Alberta has money and not too worried about revenue streams. Again all Family Law related processes should be uniformed across the country. I guess we can blame history for making education, health and Family Law Provincial because at the time they were not considered important. Boy did they get that wrong.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 02-21-2014, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachnana View Post
But Alberta has money and not too worried about revenue streams. Again all Family Law related processes should be uniformed across the country. I guess we can blame history for making education, health and Family Law Provincial because at the time they were not considered important. Boy did they get that wrong.

Alberta does indeed worry about revenue streams - that is one of the reason Alberta leads the country economically today. Alberta realizes that government shouldn't be in business and disentangled itself from many activities (ALCB being just one example). In a market-driven economy, business creates jobs - not government.

Reducing labour cost and providing better service to you/us the clients is what any provincially-funded maintenance enforcement agency should strive for. Tax payors should demand this.

What happened to Ontario? Ontario used to lead the nation in economic growth when it was the manufacturing hub. Highest educated people in the country - it's a real shame.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 02-21-2014, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by arabian View Post
Alberta does indeed worry about revenue streams - that is one of the reason Alberta leads the country economically today. Alberta realizes that government shouldn't be in business and disentangled itself from many activities (ALCB being just one example). In a market-driven economy, business creates jobs - not government.

Reducing labour cost and providing better service to you/us the clients is what any provincially-funded maintenance enforcement agency should strive for. Tax payors should demand this.

What happened to Ontario? Ontario used to lead the nation in economic growth when it was the manufacturing hub. Highest educated people in the country - it's a real shame.
Bad management in the 90s. A left over mess from the Rae-Harris eras, followed by arrogance of McGuinty.

Look up EHealth and have a good laugh.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 02-21-2014, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by arabian View Post
Alberta does indeed worry about revenue streams - that is one of the reason Alberta leads the country economically today. Alberta realizes that government shouldn't be in business and disentangled itself from many activities (ALCB being just one example). In a market-driven economy, business creates jobs - not government.

Reducing labour cost and providing better service to you/us the clients is what any provincially-funded maintenance enforcement agency should strive for. Tax payors should demand this.

What happened to Ontario? Ontario used to lead the nation in economic growth when it was the manufacturing hub. Highest educated people in the country - it's a real shame.
Sorry did mean to imply that Alberta was not fiscally responsible. I actually meant they have not made the fiscal mess that Ontario seems to have made. Ontario used to be a powerhouse of industry. Paper Mills, manufacturing etc. Its all gone and more than likely the money has veen missmanaged. I used to work for the Provincial Government in Tourism and I can tell you public Service know how to spend the money on themselves. Everytime some MP made grand guestures of change and great new programs meant the administration soent money, lots of money managing the new " cash cow". We used to love new initiatives. Time to get new busines cards, new computers, new offices. Lots of meetings in down town Toronto. Lots of days spent in Training and forums discussing the initiative and how it will work. Then a new change and it all went out the window.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 02-21-2014, 07:19 PM
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All governments waste money. Fortunately with the internet and "fast" reporting I think governments are kept more accountable nowadays. Alberta has its share of spendthrifts just like other province.

This is my minuscule take on things in Alberta:

30 yrs ago Alberta was quite government-reliant. After the Federal Liberals tried to rip the province off with the National Energy Policy, Albertans revolted. People were losing their homes and and businesses were wiped out. Interest rates were double-digit. It was a very dark time for Alberta.

Alberta smartened up. Alberta got behind business and phased itself, the provincial government, out of business. Alberta phased out some government agencies and encouraged private enterprise. License registry offices are privately run and you can get new license plates at 8:00 in the evening after work. You can shop and compare wine prices the same you do watermelons (weekly sales flyers). Alberta encourages business. Business provides employment.

Alberta sought international investment in it's oil business when the rest of the country wasn't interested. Alberta has diversified it's workforce. And so on.

Then there is the dangerous topic of unions. I'll leave my opinion on that for another post.

Last edited by arabian; 02-21-2014 at 08:00 PM.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 02-22-2014, 01:48 PM
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karmaseeker, your letter contains many factual errors, and unnecessarily focuses on gender. I do agree with some of your points in general, but not the following.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karmaseeker View Post
...
Did you know that Federal Guidelines base their figures on “Gross” amount of income which fails to reflect an actual income after taxes? and that that money is given to the recipient tax free?
Wrong. Guidelines consider taxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karmaseeker View Post
...
Did you know that the system is set up for double dipping or even triple dipping? A mother (Majority of cases have the mother as the recipient) can demand child support, as well as spousal support, and then on top of that Section 7 expenses. Each being calculated by the original gross income which therefore gets compounded into such a foolish amount that there is simply not enough to live off of?
Wrong. SS considers CS and Section 7.

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Originally Posted by karmaseeker View Post
...
Did you know that our military men who receive a pension for disability have that income “grossed” up only in a family court and not in any other situation.
Grossing up makes sense. The disability pension is tax free, therefore grossing it up makes sense to make it equivalent to a gross taxable income, which is the expected input to the guidelines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karmaseeker View Post
...
Only in family court can a judge demand a payment towards post secondary education
This is not a problem. If two parents are married, and only one decides to pay for secondary education, the other parent realistically cannot stop them, and subsequently the other is forced to pay. This is the same in divorce, when ordered by the court if only one parent decides that both should contribute to post secondary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karmaseeker View Post
...
Did you know that The federal Guidelines only being guidelines award judges so much power that they can over rule the table amounts and create any amounts they see fit?
This is a good thing. Tables and formulas cannot handle all situations. Giving judges power to consider the details of a particular situation makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karmaseeker View Post
...
Did you know that a payer can be forced to pay for extracurricular activities regardless of his ability to pay? In families not split, parents can veto an activity if it falls into a category of luxury and out of their ability to afford it but in family court, children’s downhill skiing can take precedence over the payers ability to pay for basis bills.
This is not true. Same logic as paying for post secondary I mentioned above. In marriage if only one parent decides to pay for an extracurricular, there is practically nothing the other parent can do, and subsequently they both pay. If you can't agree on section 7, then a judge will do it for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karmaseeker View Post
...
I know more than I ever cared to know about family law
I think you need to keep studying


Quote:
Originally Posted by karmaseeker View Post
...
Federal Guidelines should be based on a net not gross amount.
They do. Guidelines consider taxes on gross income.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karmaseeker View Post
...
Spousal support should be determined after the child support has been deducted
It is. SSAG considers child support payments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karmaseeker View Post
...
Section 7 expenses percentages should be calculated by (line 236 - Child Support - Spousal Support = new amount from which to determine %) as well for the receiver ( line 236 + Child Support + Spousal Support = Their new amount from which to calculate percentage.)
SSAG considers section 7. However, this is almost never done, but in the calculation software divorcemate, you can entered expected section 7 expenses and it adjusts SS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karmaseeker View Post
...
The cultural indoctrination of “Dead Beat Dads” needs to be equaled out with social awareness of “Malicious Mothers”.
Are you seriously calling for more negativity??

Last edited by billm; 02-22-2014 at 02:13 PM.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 02-22-2014, 09:16 PM
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Hello Mr. Trudeau,

I recently watched your video with the cartoonist outlining your platform focused on the middle class and their struggles primarily with Debt. While, you seem to be saying a lot of things that resonate with me there is one issue that you have not recognized and I am curious as to what your stance is on this issue.

The issue that I am talking about is that of the Federal Child Support Guidelines. If you want to address Debt and want to resolve personal debt in this country, I don’t think you can do that with out addressing the Federal Guidelines and the gross mis-justice within them. You want to make real and effective change for the families of Canada then this is a platform that will win you tremendous support. In Canada we have a very high divorce rate and while it may appear that divorce rates may be on the decrease, I would suggest that that is because fewer people are getting married and are choosing to cohabitate instead. That doesn’t mean fewer people are having babies or fewer children are raised in split homes regardless of marital status. In both scenarios the Federal Child Support Guidelines apply.

When you look behind the curtain of these laws, you will find our great Canadian Families riddled with DEBT. Debt not only because of the ridiculously long and drawn out family proceedings and lawyers costs but because of the guidelines themselves.
  • Did you know it can sometimes take years for families to resolve issues through family court? The process is set up that way. While, employee disputes are handled in mere months, family law draws things out as long as possible requiring a case conference, settlement conference, trial and a potential for yearly motions for any adjustments in child support?
  • Did you know that many middle class families have no access to legal representation because they “make too much” to qualify for legal aid but in reality don’t make any where near enough for Lawyers’ fees.
  • Did you know that Federal Guidelines base their figures on “Gross” amount of income which fails to reflect an actual income after taxes? and that that money is given to the recipient tax free?
  • Did you know that the system is set up for double dipping or even triple dipping? A mother (Majority of cases have the mother as the recipient) can demand child support, as well as spousal support, and then on top of that Section 7 expenses. Each being calculated by the original gross income which therefore gets compounded into such a foolish amount that there is simply not enough to live off of? This in itself is a breech of the Canadian Constitution: 7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice. If you steal from a man more than he can reasonable survive on you steal his rights to life, liberty and security.
  • Did you know that our military men who receive a pension for disability have that income “grossed” up only in a family court and not in any other situation. The CRA, Veteran’s affairs, or any other governmental agency does not recognize this or even know how to calculate it as it is unheard of. Only a computer program in the hands of Lawyers and Judges can calculate this made up calculation
  • Did you know that second families are not awarded any recognition, security, or legal rights as the children of the first families? Only in family court can a judge demand a payment towards post secondary education and that children from a second marriage, or still married family are not afforded the same rights?
  • Did you know that The federal Guidelines only being guidelines award judges so much power that they can over rule the table amounts and create any amounts they see fit?
  • Did you know that a payer can be forced to pay for extracurricular activities regardless of his ability to pay? In families not split, parents can veto an activity if it falls into a category of luxury and out of their ability to afford it but in family court, children’s downhill skiing can take precedence over the payers ability to pay for basis bills.

I know more than I ever cared to know about family law and as a Canadian citizen I am disgusted with the a system that has nothing to do with Justice. I expected better from Canada.

What can you do about it?
  • Federal Guidelines should be based on a net not gross amount. Judges should be restricted to line 236 of the payers tax return. Absolute! No “in the digression” of the judge. That is too much power for one person to wield.
  • Spousal support should be determined after the child support has been deducted (Line 236 - Child Support = New amount from which to calculate spousal). Unless in a circumstance where their is no child support and then amount may start from line 236.
  • Section 7 expenses percentages should be calculated by (line 236 - Child Support - Spousal Support = new amount from which to determine %) as well for the receiver ( line 236 + Child Support + Spousal Support = Their new amount from which to calculate percentage.)
  • Court process of the Family Rules should be scrapped and family matters should be handled as expediently as possible reflective more of a mediation process like employee or union disputes.
  • Expediting proceedings are in the best interest of the children which is the primary mandate of the family law process, minimizes continued acrimony, and reduces court costs.
  • All split parents should automatically be awarded joint custody and forced to do co-parenting classes should they show signs of high conflict instead of the current approach that high conflict is reason enough to award sole custody. Many mother’s know this and then create conflict to ensure their award of sole custody, awarding them absolute power and absolute increased wealth through above mentioned triple dipping.
  • Fatherless children are far more likely to tax the country by early pregnancy, addictive and anti-social behaviours, and need of more mental health programs, or even jail time. Yet, the system almost forces men into the background and fails to understand Malicious Mother Syndrome or Child Alienation Syndrome. Therefore, judges overseeing mediation in family law matters need to be educated and made aware of the reality of the dynamics of many high conflict cases.
  • The cultural indoctrination of “Dead Beat Dads” needs to be equaled out with social awareness of “Malicious Mothers”. A family court room is a perfect playground for someone to “legally” harass, slander, make false allegations, and financial destroy the opposing party should they be inspired by vindictiveness. There are zero fail safes to prevent this. I fully believe men should provide for their children and that at one time protections needed to be put in place to product mothers but the pendulum has swung far too far to the left. And where are the protections for fathers?

Mr Trudeau, If you want to take seriously the issues to the middle class and debt, this issue should be brought on to your platform. Debt is not good for families and it is not good for the economy. Therefore, the Federal Guidelines are not good for the economy. If you were to assure me that you take these concerns seriously and promise real change to this debt producing system, not only would I vote for you I would advocate for you.
I applaud you for this.

I assume you sent a real letter in an envelope with a stamp attached.

That is really the only way to have your voice heard, in my opinion.

E-mails are a dime a dozen. Real "Old School" correspondence is the way to go.

I don't even care if I agree with your position or not.

More people need to get involved, and write a letter.
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2014, 02:27 AM
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I appreciate most of the sentiments in this letter, good job in taking this initiative. Perhaps it could become the basis for an online petition? I know quite a few people who would sign something like this.

on another note, I could not agree more with Arabian in terms of FRO.
FRO should be re-thought in terms of how they operate. There is a very large bias in the power they have in how they execute their collection of child support. I am all for having the penalties of garnishment or suspending licences, etc..
But the system that is in Alberta seems built to work with the parties...I especially like that they have the discretion to alter child support based on income, instead of tying up the courts with that..
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