Male Reproductive Rights

[#1StepMom]

How the child was conceived and the parents' responsibility to support their child are two completely different things that cannot be intertwined and placed into any sort of law.

Believe me, I too have zero sympathy for women who use deceit to create a child that they personally want for reasons of their own. My husband is living, breathing proof of a young first-year university student, approached by an older woman (3 years older) one night at a bar, who took him back to her place for what seemed like a typical one-night-stand (drunk yet consenting)... only to have the condom break, her lie about being on the pill (when he asked whether she should look into getting the morning-after pill)... and nine months later, the money-grubbing began. Facilitating him access was none of her concern, ever, and still isn't. All that matters is how much money he can pay. The more, the better. Expenses for the most expensive things she could find, all "in the child's best interest." After all, he was working (part time, but still working) while she wasn't, so he was responsible for 100% of the expense! Heck, he even had to PAY to SEE his child during the first year. She wouldn't let him lay eyes on the baby unless he came bearing gifts (diapers, milk, clothing, whatever) on top of child support! And 7 years later, things aren't much better than they were in the beginning. And the worst part of it all, the court system has done nothing but turn a blind eye and even proclaimed all the extra payments to be "gifts" that cannot and will not be counted as overpayment or returned. I think THAT is what is sickening about the whole situation... fathers who, regardless of whether they wanted to be fathers or not, are trying to be responsible for their offspring, and instead are getting extorted by their babies' mothers and used as nothing more than a living, breathing ATM. It absolutely sickens me how much money my husband pays monthly for 1 child. He currently pays closer to the table amount for 2 children than for 1 child... on top of providing the child with a fully furnished room, toys, daycamps, activities, and every piece of clothing for every weather in our home. But to the courts, none of that matters. (Believe me, we've tried to make it matter.) Something should be done about THAT - not about who's responsible and in what circumstance.

[got2bkid]

What I see happening is that women have the "rights" with regard to reproduction, without the corresponding responsibilities. Ok, yes, she will have responsibilities, many, but not LEGISLATED ones. There is no judge standing over her telling her to give her child XXX amount of dollars per month for her child every year until they graduate university, and that she cannot quit working or she will go into arrears and owe even more.

By contrast, the man has only responsibilities, but not rights, in regard to reproduction. The man may tell a women he doesn't want a child, she may lie to him about being on contraception, or it may just be an accident. But once she is pregnant, he has no rights, it is ALL her decision. And yet he is now held responsible for CS, daycare, summer camps, and university for up to age 26 in Canada.

Yes, a child needs money to be raised, but should a man be cornered into this economic servitude, responsibility minus rights? The women, who has the right to keep the child, knowing the man involved didn't want a child, should be fully responsible (including financially) for her choice to keep the child.

[got2bkid]

Oh good, now all the people who say the child has the right to be supported by both parents, once it comes into the world, no matter what the means (lies, love, deception, accidents etc.) will now support my "second" children petition that just wants kids from second unions (with CS paying parents) to be acknowledged as needing support from both their parents too. Here's the link - sign on.

Canadian Child Support Guidelines are Unfair to "Second" Families Petition

[representingself]

In an effort to be as open minded as possible, I read this entire thread.

First off, this "midnight" guy is an angry, resentful man. That aside, he tried, (albiet improperly), to get some support for what he believes in. Each to their own!

Unfortunately for him, the sex contracts and forced abortions aren't going to happen.

When two consenting adults have sex, regardless of the methods of contraception used, they could conceive a child. It is that simple.

I am actually pretty sure that they teach that in Grade 9 sex ed class.

Both genders have an opportunity to enforce their civil liberites...... just at different times!!

Men, have the right (before conception), to abstain from sexual intercourse...
If a child is unwanted, a vasectomy is provided, courtesy of the taxpayor.

Men also have the right to abstain from having a sexual relationship with a woman who is not their wife or significant partner. (They can CHOOSE to not have casual sex with strangers; therefore, protecting themselves from said "gold-diggers").

Women, have the right (after conception), to decide whether or not to carry the pregnancy to term.

So you see, there is no "extortion" here.... it is about choices!

Midnight could have avoided this if he had exercised either of the above "rights".

He CHOSE not to, so now he shall face the imposed consequences.

It is really too bad for his child though, and for the countless other children out there, whose Fathers decided (too late), that they didn't want a child....

[justsayno]

What about when the man wants a child and the women goes and gets an abortion without his permission? Where are the man's rights then? (I know personally of two cases when this has happened to my male acquaintences. )

[representingself]

Originally Posted by justsayno

What about when the man wants a child and the women goes and gets an abortion without his permission? Where are the man's rights then? (I know personally of two cases when this has happened to my male acquaintences. )

That is a difficult situation as well....

Men don't have any rights in that particular situation.

One of my female aquaintences was married with 3 small children.....and they were surprised with a new pregnancy.

The husband was happy and ready to add to the family and the wife was adament that she did not want to continue with the pregnancy. She was a stay at home mom and she felt she couldn't handle the added stress and financial burden....nor did she want to be pregnant for 9 months and cause further destruction to her body.

She ended up aborting the pregnancy without her husbands knowledge or consent.

Needless to say..... this destroyed their marriage and they are now divorced. It was a nasty, nasty divorce.

The point to my story is that, even though the man wanted the child, it is the woman who has to carry the baby, and give birth to it.... and unless you have been pregnant, you'll NEVER understand what that does to your body...or how sick you can be...the pain is excrutiating and the damage is permanent.

Neither the biological fathers nor the government should have the right to force a woman to bear a child.

The same works for abortion. It is a surgical procedure, with many possible side effects....

Some believe abortion is murder.

Again, no one, not biological Father or the Government should ever be able to force a woman to murder her unborn child..... especially if the reason is because the man doesn't want to financially support said child.

Money isn't everything....right??

[got2bkid]

Money isn't everything, right? I think CP's would see if differently if they were told to hand over 50% of their take-home pay to the ex-husband (give him custody), and try to live a semi-normal life, while still providing a home for their children when they visit.

THE GUIDELINE amounts are TOO HIGH, and it is NOT REALISTIC to expect that anyone can live on 50% of their income, and men payors lose hope and just go away. Can't say I blame them, especially if they had no CHOICE and didn't want the child.

I have a challenge for CP's, try, just for one month, to:
1)put aside your "guideline" amount of CS you would pay (If the child was with the father), based on your income
2)put away the money you get in CCTB,
3)put away Tax refunds (divide your yearly return by 12),
4) put away and GST, and any other money "for the kids".
5) Put aside the CS the NCP pays you.
6) put aside any "extra-expenses" allocated (if not already doing)


Now try to live a normal life. That is how the NCP lives every month for 18+ years.
Get it yet?

[midnightvampyr]

I am only interested in hearing from people who are in the same situation...they understand exactly what it is....people who are not....DON"T GET IT...ignorance is bliss for them......and don't forget that lawyers and the governement, as well as the extortionist profit most from the present "law" ...the children usually end up as hookers, massage parlour attendants, strippers at the local bars....and who do you think patronizes these places....your husbands of course.....lol...while the other males who are in favour of allowing this extortion pull their goalie...good night Irene

[midnightvampyr]

I agree 1000% with got2bkid...you are an intelligent human being....very well educated....and can think for yourself

[midnightvampyr]

"Justice therefore dictates that if a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support. Or, put another way, autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice." --

Karen DeCrow, former NOW President ( National Organisation for Women, U.S.A.)

She is a very liberated and intelligent woman. You don't seem to be either.

MEN HAVE NO RIGHTS and nobody except the government, lawyers and the extortionists profit from these situations.....it does not reflect well on us as Canadians to have our elected representatives stick their proverbial noses up their butts and ignore the draconian nature of this law....child support should be tied into access....no access then no support....the slogan that "good parents pay" came from an obese woman who was non-orgasmic and had an axe to grind with all healthy red blooded males...also, the federal website that proclaims that child support payments have nothing to do with access is a further proclamation that our system is not only flawed but insane.....it encourages homicides and suicides or devious ways to use the law to NOT pay...what about the Conservative Native senator, a former chief and non tax paying Canadian resident, who also knocked up a woman and was paying $45 per month in child support....this from a guy who makes low six figures....come on now .....there is something very wrong here....and nobody seems to have the balls to do anything resembling common sense to end this insanity....Huxleys Brave New World is a solution for this.....since politicians are too busy lining their own pockets and doing nothing of any intrinsic value for anyone except themselves...