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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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Old 06-28-2009, 09:15 PM
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Angry Male Reproductive Rights

I was involved in a short term heterosexual relationship in 2006. Although I can empathize with the woman's desparation for family and marriage, she is a Brazilian immigrant, as she was approaching 40 years old, I was not desparate for either and told her so. In that her sister/husband/children were moving out of the townhouse she shared financially with them, along with supporting her parents and sister, she told me that she was pregnant, or more consisely, that I was going to be a daddy. I told her emphatically that I was not going to marry her just because she was pregnant and that I DID NOT want to be a daddy, she told me emphatically that she would be a single mother then. She knew about the pregnancy within one month of the apparent conception - from someone who had her menstrual cycle every six weeks. She almost immediately began telling me how much I owed her for the pregnancy in prenatal bills, assuming I made a salary that was 50% higher than I actually was. Of course we split up and, she eventually sued me for child support. The legal bills for me were greater than $10,000 believe it or not.


The legal sparring was very adversarial, the lawyers feasted, and when the numbers, including arrears were "court" settled, I no longer had any interest in ever seeing the child as they granted me 15 minutes every other weekend at the woman's residence. I have resolved to never see the child yet I am still paying $600 per month in child support, tax free to the woman, after tax for me, for something I never had a say in - no rights. I have written several emails to our provincial "legislators" without a response except from Michael Bryant's office who only wanted my address and telephone number (for the Liberals ridiculous website I assume).

Changing the law is of paramount importance to me. Is there not a political lobby group who are attempting to change the outright ludicrousness of this and family law in general. Why do they have an Orwellian FRO contributing to the aiding and abetting of this type of extortion? Have they not read Dr Kruk's studies on children of divorce etc and how they turn out?

Any comments or information sharing would be appreciated.
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Old 06-28-2009, 11:54 PM
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Although I don't disagree with your reasons - after all, my husband felt the exact same way when his one-night-stand informed him she was pregnant and paternity tests proved him as the father - I must say that this child, the child that you helped bring into this world (whether you wanted to or not) did not have a say in his or her being here either. This innocent human being, fully dependant on the adults in his or her life (which we assume should be responsible for the caring of this child) should not be blamed or penalized for his/her parents' actions. What happened to you, and to many man, is unfair... yes. I agree that you should have a say in whether you want to be responsible for a child. But, someone does need to be responsible, and it just happens to be the creators of the child who need to fulfill this important responsibility. I can tell that you are upset and bitter at the entire situation. But I urge you to put your anger aside, and think about this innocent child you have brought into the world... your son or daughter... a little human being who is one half you. Perhaps getting to know your mini-me wouldn't be so bad. All the best to you. :-)
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Old 06-29-2009, 12:04 AM
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Thanks for your response. However, the woman, who makes over $40,000 per year, receives monthly payments from the government, is allowed to claim 100% of the daycare costs even though her percentage of the payment is lower than mine, can claim the child as a dependent, is entitled to reduced daycare costs because of her single parent status etc.

I believe that it is much too easy to "create" a child. It is far more difficult to raise one. That is why I suggest that there should be a written legal agreement to bring a child into this world and signed by both parties. If it is not signed by both parties, the other party can make a more informed decision regarding abortion/adoption or raising the child on his/her own. I think this is the only "fair" option. Being extorted with the government's blessing is tantamount to being psychologically and financially raped repeatedly.
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightvampyr View Post
Thanks for your response. However, the woman, who makes over $40,000 per year, receives monthly payments from the government, is allowed to claim 100% of the daycare costs even though her percentage of the payment is lower than mine, can claim the child as a dependent, is entitled to reduced daycare costs because of her single parent status etc.

I believe that it is much too easy to "create" a child. It is far more difficult to raise one. That is why I suggest that there should be a written legal agreement to bring a child into this world and signed by both parties. If it is not signed by both parties, the other party can make a more informed decision regarding abortion/adoption or raising the child on his/her own. I think this is the only "fair" option. Being extorted with the government's blessing is tantamount to being psychologically and financially raped repeatedly.
oh come on, i realize you are bitter but a sex contract??? I take it you used a condom and did not rely on her to provide birth control. There was a DNA test done?? If you do not want kids then you have a choice to get snipped and no more worries. You said you had no say and no rights in regards to the baby. You had rights, the right to say no to sex. Once you had sex and she became pregnant and the child was born, that childs rights are more important.

My biggest thing is do not do the crime unless you can do the time. Go into every sexual relationship thinking that things happen, unwanted pregnancies can happen. It sounds like you would have been happier if she would have had an abortion. I am pro-choice by the way and believe that no man has a right to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body. Accidents happen like broken condoms etc. There are also women who will lie about being on the pill. I can just see it, women and men in the heat of the moment and one whips out a 4 page contract and says sign here, here and here and then we can continue.
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Old 06-29-2009, 08:34 AM
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You're right, Midnight... it is far too easy to create a child. And I fully understand your financial hardships. My husband is in the same boat: paying 50% towards daycare expenses while my stepson's mom claims 100%, receives subsidy due to her single parent status, claims the child as a dependant each year, cashes in the tax benefits she receives, and my husband sees not a penny of it... despite being at least 50% responsible for those expenses. And, as you mentioned before, you can't even claim child support on your taxes!

Do you have a court order detailing the specifics of your financial responsibility? You mentioned lawyers, but did you ever stand in front of a judge? From our experience with lawyers and their quick-to-settle four-way meetings, they will agree on anything to get the matter "resolved." We made that mistake once, and it cost us thousands of dollars. Eventually we took it all to court, and sadly, for a lot of things, the "status quo" stuck... but other things were able to get re-evaluated by the judge. For example, in my husband's final order, it states that my stepson's mom is to share her child care benefits on her tax return in the same proportion as each of them paid towards the daycare expense. Perhaps that is something you should consider as part of your order.

In the meanwhile, I suggest you brush up on your knowledge of the Child Support Guidelines and Family Law. Know the system inside and out - although there are times, sadly, when the rules don't apply (I'm still trying to figure out why that is). But you need to equip yourself with the knowledge if you are to fight for your paternal rights, be they financial or other (such as being a physical part of your child's life). When my husband found out that he was a daddy (at the young age of 19, to add) he contemplated fleeing and just paying his obligated support, so as to not "ruin his life." But in the end, he did not want to be a deadbeat dad, nor did he want to face his son one day, many years down the road, who had seeked him out to ask why he didn't want to be part of his life. Can you imagine that? What would you say to your child in that circumstance? "Because I never liked your mother and never agreed to her keeping you when she became pregnant without my agreement, so I wanted nothing to do with either of you." - I don't think those words should ever come out of anyone's mouth. You see what I mean? In my opinion, it's messier to stay away than it is to stay part of the child's life, especially as the child begins to grow up and question what happened to their father.
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Old 06-29-2009, 08:58 AM
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Default To Standing on the Sidelines

I read your response. You are Pro Choice for women and No Choice for Men. Hence the problem. By the way, many intelligent women are Pro Choice for both men and women. I quote

"Justice therefore dictates that if a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support. Or, put another way, autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice." --

Karen DeCrow, former NOW President ( National Organisation for Women, U.S.A.)
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Old 06-29-2009, 10:31 AM
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midnightvampyr,

You conceived a child. The only thing about the system is that the man cannot force the woman to abort the child, or to not abort the child. Both of which I agree that you should not have that right, though there are moral implications for both.

That is the way the world is, you will not change it.

Otherwise, once the baby is born, no one can agree to give away the child's rights to be financially supported by its parents, not the mother, not the father.

You have a child, but your own actions, now you are morally obligated to support it based on your income.

You wasted money and energy fighting that concept, you or your lawyer should have known better. In Canada the child support tables are mostly used. You pay the table amount for your income, it is calculated as post tax dollars. It does not matter what the mother makes. You should have an agreement that automatically adjusts this amount every year based on your income.

You should put your energy into your child, not fighting their mother.

Writing the government etc to try to change/make laws to allow for parents to walk away from their financial obligation to their children is a total waste of your time as it WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Focus on your child and be a man and a father.
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Old 06-29-2009, 10:34 AM
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Default I want to form a lobby group in support of Male Reproductive Rights

Any and all men who are presently paying child support and feel they are being extorted by the woman please contact me privately. I want to form a political lobby group to change the law and save the lives of innocent children who are being used as pawns to extort money from men. I am also interested in the socioeconomic status of the women involved.

This is a very real problem and can only be addressed through political activism, not the courts or through lawyers who profit, if not thrive financially, from these situations.

Intelligent women who also support Pro Choice for Men and Women are welcome to join.
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Old 06-29-2009, 10:57 AM
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Morality has nothing to do with using a child as a pawn to extort money from someone who did not want to have a child with this person. Take away the right to extort, what then will be the decision by the woman.

Why would anyone want to bring a child into this world??
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Old 06-29-2009, 11:13 AM
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Not sure what contraceptive measures you were using - it certainly doesn't matter at this point. Your now responsible for someone else. I believe we all know that a baby is the possible outcome of unprotected sex. Its silly to leave the contraceptive upto one party. - SILLY!

Not sure what costs your partner had during her pregnancy. Were her OB appointments not covered by the provincial healthcare plan? I am 3 weeks post partum and I didn't have any extra costs while pregnant - only prenatal vitamins.

Its irrelevant that you mention your ex partner is a a brazillian immigrant unless she had to pay out of pocket for medical care. Every Canadian unless you have native status is an immigrant.

Not every parent that is a single parent gets a reduced daycare fee. I'm sure you would have to pay additional money (section 7 ) to help pay the daycare fee.

My guess - and I'm only guessing is that you would have been provided much more access, if you stepped upto the plate! I'm sure you could get more access if you started out slowly. The judge probably lost his tolerance and thats why you only got 15mins access.

Step up and be a parent!
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