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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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Old 11-09-2016, 11:54 AM
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Default Grandparents and Access: Possible changes to the CLRA

I found this read very interesting.

Grandparents push again for access to grandchildren in custody disputes - Ottawa - CBC News

Too many children become deprived of relationships with their grandparents. My mother went through it as well while my ex was on her campaign of destruction. I'm not sure my mom will ever recover from the months her precious granddaughter was hidden and denied access.

It states,

Quote:
A private member's bill from New Democrat Michael Mantha that would ensure courts give grandparents a chance to make a case for access to children during custody disputes has received second reading in the legislature.

"This bill is really focused on grandchildren's rights as well, because denying them access to their grandparents is detrimental to their well-being, to their upbringing," said Mantha, who represents the Algoma—Manitoulin district.
Thoughts?
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Old 11-09-2016, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
Thoughts?
Private members bill. Will go nowhere and should go nowhere.

There is enough conflict in family law. We don't need to pile on grandparents. Parents are the only people who should be able to apply for custody and access to children.

Their efforts would be better focused on shared equal residence and custody. I wouldn't be surprised if 90% (or higher) of these "grandparents" bringing the bill forward are paternal grandparents.

Last edited by Tayken; 11-09-2016 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 11-09-2016, 12:19 PM
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Bill 34
Her Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of the Province of Ontario, enacts as follows:

1. Section 20 of the Children’s Law Reform Act is amended by adding the following subsection:

Relationship with grandparents
[B](2.1) A person entitled to custody of a child shall not create or maintain unreasonable barriers to the formation and continuation of a personal relationship between the child and the child’s grandparents.
Yuck. Too vague. What defines a "personal relationship" and what amount of time is needed to do that? Some (lots) of children only see their grandparents once a year. Some never see them because they died before they were born or they live in another country.

I can't imagine the nonsense a judge will have to go about to determine what judge would have to do with this crapola if presented as an argument on an application.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 11-09-2016, 12:23 PM
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All good points.
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:41 PM
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I had the same reaction - what's an "unreasonable barrier" (as opposed to a reasonable one?) and what's a "personal relationship"?

I'm guessing this bill is a feel-good gesture by a MP who's looking ahead to time next election and wants to be able to say he "fought for grandparents' rights", without actually having to do anything. I'd wager there are lots of old folks in his riding ...
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:55 PM
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Grandparents can be denied access even in an intact marriage. Should they have the right to take the parents, one of whom is their own child, to court to demand access in that situation too?

In LF's case, denial of access to his mother was a side effect of the ex denying access to LF. If his ex had let the paternal grandmother have time with the child, the ex wouldn't have been able to control if LF got to see the child or not during that time.

While there is a custody dispute, grandparents should stay out of it completely except for being supportive. When the dispute is resolved, grandparents can get access through their own child.

However, I could see it being important in the event of the death of a parent, and that parent's ex not helping the children to maintain a relationship with the other biological family. If I died, for example, I can't see my ex facilitating my parents or siblings to have very much contact with our children, and there goes any chance of them ever meeting extended family farther away who I currently hope to someday visit.

Why limit it to grandparents? What about aunts and uncles? Cousins? Etc.
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Old 11-09-2016, 02:05 PM
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I had the same reaction - what's an "unreasonable barrier" (as opposed to a reasonable one?) and what's a "personal relationship"?

I'm guessing this bill is a feel-good gesture by a MP who's looking ahead to time next election and wants to be able to say he "fought for grandparents' rights", without actually having to do anything. I'd wager there are lots of old folks in his riding ...
I wouldn't take that wager. I recon you are right.
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Old 11-09-2016, 02:11 PM
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Grandparents can be denied access even in an intact marriage. Should they have the right to take the parents, one of whom is their own child, to court to demand access in that situation too?
As written and if it were to get integrated into the CLRA the answer to that question is yes.

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Originally Posted by Rioe View Post
In LF's case, denial of access to his mother was a side effect of the ex denying access to LF.
Yes. I think we need to fix the root problem and not look for patches that create more complexity in an already very complex matter. If you want to fix the problem you have to do it at the root. LF32 should have never been put in that situation. Had the matter not been able to start off the way it had the problem would have never existed for the grandparent.

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While there is a custody dispute, grandparents should stay out of it completely except for being supportive.
I agree 100%. If you look at the case law where grandparents are involved in the dispute it is ugly business. Adding to the legal burden with this nonsense won't help.

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Originally Posted by Rioe View Post
When the dispute is resolved, grandparents can get access through their own child.
Joint custody and shared equal residency until such time a court orders otherwise. Age based access schedules. 2-2-3-3 for children under 5 and 2-2-5-5 for children under 14. Youngest child determines the access schedule for all children involved in the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rioe View Post
However, I could see it being important in the event of the death of a parent, and that parent's ex not helping the children to maintain a relationship with the other biological family.
This would be a special circumstance but, the CLRA allows for grandparents to apply for access in this matter already.

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Why limit it to grandparents? What about aunts and uncles? Cousins? Etc.
CLRA already covers this. No need to change it to be specific for grandparents.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 11-09-2016, 06:56 PM
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There better be some sort of resolution for grandparents. I can't imagine what I'd do if I were put in a situation where I couldn't see mine. I would fight hard. That reminds me... I should update my thread about my son's new baby situation.
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Old 11-09-2016, 08:08 PM
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Eliminate child support, shared custody by default, no spousal support - divorces would be cut down by 70%, Problem solved.
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