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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2007, 08:59 PM
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Hi LV and Yoyo

That was a nice discussion.

sufferer
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2007, 01:44 AM
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yoyo,

as you mentioned,

Quote:
well so is the only thing that the person might be dead somewhere your only possibility that allows a person to be both not paying and not being able to be located. I think most people have people in thier life who would report you missing if you failed to show up for work, home etc. How many of these people do you think are likely dead and no one notified FRO or the ex about it? Really there are only a handful of missing or unidentified bodies floating around there.
Are you absolutely sure? After all the FRO cannot “locate” the individual. Who is to say where they are.

Quote:
These parents don't want to be found
Again, are you absolutely sure? I’m not convinced. See Jlalex’s contribution to this thread and the experience with the FRO. As mentioned by Jlalex, the individual never went anywhere. Perhaps the FRO ran out of paper or were delinquent in paying their telephone bill to contact same.

Quote:
I understand you don't like "labelling" these men but good parents take care of their children.
That is somewhat correct. I feel the label of (Good Parents pay) as depict by the FRO website is unconstitutional being that it is now a government defined criteria to determine the difference.

Please clarify further what you mentioned (good parents take care of their children) as it is a broad statement. Do you mean as depict by the FRO site “Good Parents Pay”

Quote:
Sure it is a "value" statement but I think most people would agree both child support is a good thing. Most people are willing to say that parent should take care of their children.
Is it a value statement or a label depict by the FRO on their website. I agree that Parents should in general take care of their children. This is common sense, which has many meanings.

Quote:
Most people would say other "value" driven statements like good parents don't abuse their children but you never know maybe their are people out there who don't want to assign labels on people like "bad parent" if they sexually abuse their children.
Off topic. Your comparing apples to oranges as the issue is the FRO “Good Parents Pay" website. Again I’m not clear why the topic of child abuse is being dragged into this thread. As you mentioned already there are Child Abuse Registry’s to handle same.

Quote:
Hell maybe there are people who agree with skipping out on thier children.
Sad but true. There is no law that compels a person to be a parent to a child.

Quote:
Heaven forbid we allow someone to publize it and make that "judgement" that they are bad parents. This is why the child abuse came into this discussion.
The “someone” you are referring to is an agency of the crown, Therefore assigning a label is unconstitutional and I believe that is my point of this whole thread.

Quote:
Heaven forbid I make any statements that question the "goodness" or badness of a parent.
That is your right under the Charter.

Quote:
I am surprised you seem surprised about comments of posts being deleted - what they never happen?
I am not surprised at all. I admit I deleted some of your posts in other threads in this forum as they were inappropriate. I’m not clear what your vendetta is with this forum and its members.

Quote:
And LV when you want to release that name . ... feel free .... also post the other duplicate names. And your own real name would be nice as well.
No need to release or post same. I’m not clear of your intentions of having my real name posted in a public forum. Please clarify. However, if you would like to contact me I can be reached at logicalvelocity@yahoo.ca

lv
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2007, 07:58 AM
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I agree that the FRO site is not a good use of tax payer dollars ,and does not solve the problem at hand. In some cases puts a label on people unjustifiably. No one, good or bad, should have to bear this kind of public labelling, as this is unconstitutional, as I personally feel that the innocent may get caught in this trap and be forever damaged emotionally etc.

I have a psychotic ex and I have never had reason to say I "Hate" someone but can for this individual as he has kidnapped my children, threatened their lives, and attempted to murder me by way of hiring someone, and is also in arrears. Would I want his face there? Heck NO!! It doesn't help it only hinders everything about "the best interests of the children". This should be banded, I too am ashamed to be Canadian when this type of thing happens.
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Old 03-05-2007, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denisem
What are your thoughts on this site?
What bugs me the most about this site, is the perception is creates and reinforces the stereotype of the non-involved deadbeat father. What is clear from all the newspaper articles and overall support for this site is the general public has absolutely no understanding of the Family Law system in Canada (unless they have been it in). Let me list a few of the issues regarding support:

1) The child support guidelines assume the recipient parent is paying their fair share. In cases of equal income, that would be 50% of the costs. But their share is not court ordered, tracked or verified. So, if the recipient was to not contribute their share, they are completely invisible to the system (i.e. not brought to court and not branded a deadbeat). Their is a huge assumption that the recipient is holding up their end of the bargain. The paying parent is not granted the same considerations.

2) The money is not accountable (the recipient is not obligated to spend 1 cent on the kids). Nor does it count for tax purposes. It is invisible money.

3) Most CS and SS orders are for 50%-60% of net income of the payer. That leaves little for the paying parent to live on. The recipient can also claim the children as dependents, can claim CTB and a host of other tax incentives for "low" income parents. The payer, nothing.

4) The recipient can claim (write-off) all court costs attributed to having child support increased. The paying parent cannot claim court costs for attempting to lower support. The list is endless on the imbalances between recipients and payers. The ball is certainly in the recipient's court.

5) Child support is a huge lifestyle award. So let's call it that. No child can burn up that kind of cash per month. When is enough is enough?

6) Child support does not end at 18. Those may be ADULT children the payer is supporting. Under the current law, the recipient receives child support until the child obtains at least one university degree or when the child remove themselves from parental control. That could be 30!

7) University tuition is NOT included in child support. It is another add-on cost that is paid by each parent proportionate to their income. There are other add on costs like daycare, extra expenses and on and on that are tacked on above support payments. And unlike children of married families, divorced children are guaranteed to have their full tuition fees paid. When will it end?

8) It is extremely expensive and difficult to have support lowered or terminated when the paying parent loses their job or runs out of money. It is easy to see why people fall into arrears. The arrearages are likely created in large part because the child support system is mulishly impervious to the economic realities working people face, such as layoffs, wage cuts, unemployment and work-related injuries. According to the Urban Institute, less than one in 20 non-custodial parents who suffers a substantial drop in income is able to get courts to reduce his or her child-support payments.

9) It is common to impute income to the payer and make then pay support based on some artificial salary much higher than they actually make or can afford.

10) Support is never retroactively adjusted to benefit the payer, but it is almost always retroactively adjusted to benefit the recipient. Disgusted yet...?

11) The purpose of spousal support is to get people back on their feet. Not a cash-for-life lottery. Yet, spousal support awards continue forever, even if the recipient re-marries!

12) There is no consideration for second families. Do those children not need support too?

13) In Canada, when you have the children 50-50, you are supposed to receive a reduction in support payments. But they branded that law and the father's that try to use it as well. They call it "dollars for days" and assumed the dad was "up to something". Yup. Instead of getting a break on child support when you incur half the day-to-day costs of the children, you are branded an opportunist. A money-grabber. It was once reported that for every father attempting a reduction in child support by applying for 50-50 access, there were 100 mothers withholding access to gain full child support. Oh, but don't worry mom's. The SCC Contino's decision ensured that for every father who managed to get 50-50 will be in court for decades trying to get a break on their support. Most end up paying full support even though they have equal responsibility, access and custody of the children.

Now, I could go on and on. But my point is made. There are various problems with the system. But no one wants to fix the problems. So, lets simply portray the typical deadbeat dad, the poor helpless mother and the abandoned kids. Yet, journalist never dig into the issues. Maybe just take one or two of these guys and see what their income is, what their payments are, what their arrears are. Actually look into the facts. But, these questions where never highlighted. Just for once, I would like a journalist to actually dig into these issues and paint the entire picture. Not just the sensationalism.

I always like the guilty until proven innocence stance of all this. The term deadbeat parents is immediately applied. Second, if you are so below the social radar that you cannot be found, really, what kind of people are they? And how much can they really be making? Also, how many of these people had the kids taken from them by the ex through our courts. Basically pushing them out of their children's lives. You can only take so much.

But the kicker, to get all the above, you have to have the children. That means you fight like heck to get your kids. And in this country it is biased towards the mother. And once you have the kids, the winner-take-all cash flow begins. It's sickening. And then the father is type-cast as the typical non-involved father. But they were court-ordered to see their children only 2 times a month due - all to their ex's ability to push them out of the children's lives BTW, mom's withhold children all the time. Deny access. Where is the FRO's branch of visitation enforcement? Well, there is none. Dad's only recourse is to return to court and mom gets a slap on the wrist. And, what is this 'trace and locate unit'? Could I have called on this elite crime fighting team to track down my child when my ex kidnapped 'em for fathers day, Easter, Christmas, and several other days that were MINE. Oh wait, that's access. And we know access is not at all in their "Best Interests". Just cash.

We need to fix the system!
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2007, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoyo
You are mistaken in a couple of ways. This is not just who are in violation of the support order but also are missing I doubt the FRO could possibly hope to ever afford the bandwidth nessasary to spotlight all parents who are in default of support orders.
It costs about $5K through a lawyer to even begin to have your support altered if you lost your job. The guys on the web site look like seasonal labourers, homeless, or retired. Sorry, these are not high-rollers living in a mansion with the playmate-of-the-month.

And the FRO itself is notorious for making clerical errors, etc. For example, they just admitted tomaking an error that sent people into arrears that were not. And the FRO takes months to catch up on paper work.

BTW, I am not defending anyone for abandoning their child(ren) - if they did that at all. We don't even know their custody and access situation from this site???

Let's get some facts here before we get the pitchforks and torches.
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2007, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logicalvelocity
Denisem,

Unconstitutional.

Basically this website was set up to locate individuals who are in violation of a court ordered child support.

I don't see a similar website setup to post pictures of individuals who violate other types of court orders such as the child's access denials.


lv
Oh, LV, I approve the use of my ex's picture for such as site.
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2007, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoyo
I think that good parents pay child support. Think that is pretty widely accepted.
I always thought good parents were involved parents? Well, I guess that's just me.

And to be involved, we need equal access and equal custody laws? Well, I guess that's just me.

I would have rather spent the $30K-$50K on fighting for access on my child's education. Well, I guess that's just me.

Kids want parents... not a trip to Disyneyland. Well, I guess that's just me.
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2007, 10:44 AM
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Decentdad you've got my vote!!

I've been on both sides of the coin, the Cp with my kids and NCP with hubbys son. It is simple..the current system in place does not work! And trying to navigate through it in an attempt to enforce a parents rights is next to impossible unless you have a lot of cash for lawyers.

In my paticular case hubbys ex is coming 8 years after seperation looking for spousal support..8 years!!! The fact that it is even entertained is amazing to me. And I have to wonder if that the fact she only asked for it after he filed for a divorce is going to be taken into consideration.

FRO is useless, and IMO it is only a matter of time before they screw up and put up a picture of some poor guy who is completely up to date and current in his support.

When are they going to come up with some kind of agency to enforce visitation and access?? I won't be holding my breath on that one.....honestly in most cases they should change the wording in court documents from NCP to ATM......because the courts don't give a crap whether the NCP sees their children. You have to rely completely of the kindness of your ex, and in probably most cases there isn't any kindness to be had.
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2007, 01:00 PM
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You have my vote, I have lived trough every one of the points you have mentioned. My husband is in that boat, no consideration for the children we have, only of the previous marriage. No consideration that the ex is making 3 times what we make, no consideration "period", almost like they are out to get the men. Once you marry you better not divorce, you so*-o*-a-B****, because if you do we will get you, count on it!!!
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2007, 03:49 PM
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DD,

you have my vote too! awesome post!

lv
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