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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2012, 04:28 PM
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Default Forced to Court -- How is this just? Is this political?

Why can a person be forced to go to court when she wants to work collaboratively with a mediator?
This is a short version repeat of my Divorce forum post from earlier.. but i think this is a political issue more than a question for general divorce...

so here goes:

Why can i be forced to court -- at full cost to me -- but he cannot be forced into mediation at minimal cost to both of us?

Isn't this a human rights issue? being MADE to do something that i don't value, want or believe in?

And having to spend my life savings on it? (which are pittance after the first three day trial into which i was recruited 3 years ago)

I feel really powerless.
This situation seems like a BIG problem in family law... we are forced to litigate but not to cooperate/mediate and we REWARD the acrimonious party with the acceptance of such motions into the courtroom wtihout requiring PRE-COURT mediation/alternative dispute resolution.

He refuses mediation
He refuses reasonable offers
i offer that we submit an uncontested motion to change
He refuses to communicate
He is high conflict
He is violent and abusive and has assaulted me on numerous occasions (currently pending trial)
He has broken the law and his profession's code of ethics and lost his job
He defrauds the government and gets fined and penalized
He is then broke
despite owning home and car and having live in working spouse

Now he has legal aid

I want to know who to talk to?
Where to write?
where to say: HEY FOLKS THIS ISN"T FAIR! I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS this way.
Who can i talk to about the system NOT working -- NOTE: this is in Quebec.

I want him to STOP bothering me and taking me to court.

I really really want to spend my time and money doing beautiful things in the world -- not stooping so low i am eating dirt.

  #2 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2012, 04:40 PM
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it isnt a human rights issue. To try and use that because you do not want to go to court will not fly. If forcing someone to do something they do not want, believe in etc was then all the NCP who would be using it to get 50/50 of their kids. Not that it would be a bad thing in that situation.

I think you are going to have to suck it up and prepare for court. I know its not fair but he obviously feels that he is getting shafted and wants his day in court. If i read right you are willing to accept that his CS etc goes down due to his job loss?? If that is the case then why court?? Remember what one person deems resonable may not be in anothers eyes.
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Old 03-31-2012, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopefuldays View Post
Why can a person be forced to go to court when she wants to work collaboratively with a mediator?
This is a short version repeat of my Divorce forum post from earlier.. but i think this is a political issue more than a question for general divorce...

so here goes:

Why can i be forced to court -- at full cost to me -- but he cannot be forced into mediation at minimal cost to both of us?

Isn't this a human rights issue? being MADE to do something that i don't value, want or believe in?

And having to spend my life savings on it? (which are pittance after the first three day trial into which i was recruited 3 years ago)

I feel really powerless.
This situation seems like a BIG problem in family law... we are forced to litigate but not to cooperate/mediate and we REWARD the acrimonious party with the acceptance of such motions into the courtroom wtihout requiring PRE-COURT mediation/alternative dispute resolution.

He refuses mediation
He refuses reasonable offers
i offer that we submit an uncontested motion to change
He refuses to communicate
He is high conflict
He is violent and abusive and has assaulted me on numerous occasions (currently pending trial)
He has broken the law and his profession's code of ethics and lost his job
He defrauds the government and gets fined and penalized
He is then broke
despite owning home and car and having live in working spouse

Now he has legal aid

I want to know who to talk to?
Where to write?
where to say: HEY FOLKS THIS ISN"T FAIR! I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS this way.
Who can i talk to about the system NOT working -- NOTE: this is in Quebec.

I want him to STOP bothering me and taking me to court.

I really really want to spend my time and money doing beautiful things in the world -- not stooping so low i am eating dirt.

You are expressing emotions that are unhealthy for you at this time. Collect your thoughts and partition out your emotional reaction from the facts. Venting on the board is cathartic but, make sure you recognize your emotional state and manage it. When you let the left side of your brain take over your entire thinking (emotional reasoning) the right side will get left behind and you could make a mistake.

*This* is what the other party in the litigation wants from you. They want you to react badly. Just keep your bad reactions to the message board and not any correspondence with the other party's solicitor or the other party in the matter directly. They want you to make this mistake.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 03-31-2012, 05:34 PM
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You are not powerless and you do not want to relinquish that power to him. I've done the Mac n Cheese thing (too many times), while ex eats at the best restaurants and cries "broke." I've almost been in tears just smelling a bbq that someone in the neighborhood is having - knowing that I have no steak in my fridge nor a bbq to prepare it on. I've had to ask my child's school to cover the milk and pizza program because I couldn't afford it.

Point is: I've been angry, bitter and resentful and identify with several of the points you made. I cannot stress enough - be good to yourself, keep a calm, clear mind. You need to. You MUST - to get through this. You do have power. Don't give it away.

Figure out your game plan - do not respond with emotion. Respond in a clinical, professional, business-like manner *when the time comes. Your anger is understandable - but it will not get you to where you need to go.
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Old 03-31-2012, 05:48 PM
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No one can be forced to sign a contract or to negotiate. Such a contract would automatically be invalid.

If you ex does not wish to sign or negotiate, they do not have to.

You are suggesting an "uncontested motion to change", that is only valid if he agrees. You cannot force someone else to agree. Forcing someone is completely unreasonable, illegal, and in itself likely a human rights violation (although it is already a violation of dozens of other legal principles.)

Mediation only works if both parties are willing to negotiate, compromise and settle. If your ex doesn't wish to, for whatever reason, then mediation is an automatic failure.

Same with collaborative law. Your ex likely feels that you two are too far apart for any hope of a negotiated settlement.

Rightly or wrongly, your ex feels that your stance is unreasonable and unsupportable and that what your ex is seeking will be supported by the courts.

One of you is going to get a reality check, possibly both.
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Old 03-31-2012, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
No one can be forced to sign a contract or to negotiate. Such a contract would automatically be invalid.
This is a mistake many "evaluators" make. Although court ordered and when they fail to investigate properly they just add more conflict as their resulting report (as demonstrated by WorkingDad) ends up being really useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
If you ex does not wish to sign or negotiate, they do not have to.
I said it before but I will say it again. You can't negotiate with someone under the influence of drugs, alcohol and has a past history of (or suffers from) mental illness. Logic and reason go out the door with people in these states and mediation will fail.

Mediation-Arbitration may be a good choice or just Arbitration. But, it is just private court at that time. The Arbitrator doesn't have much more flexibility than the court does as they generally have to follow the same Rules. If they don't follow them the matter can be brought right into court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
You are suggesting an "uncontested motion to change", that is only valid if he agrees. You cannot force someone else to agree. Forcing someone is completely unreasonable, illegal, and in itself likely a human rights violation (although it is already a violation of dozens of other legal principles.)
He is the Applicant in the matter. So if the OP doesn't respond and appear the concern is that the Judge would order in the Applicant's favour. It generally takes a series of non-appearances (note to the OP not Mess) for this to happen.

The issues before the court are the key for you to determine. It sounds all financial. The burden of proof is on the Applicant at this time to demonstrate why things need to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Mediation only works if both parties are willing to negotiate, compromise and settle. If your ex doesn't wish to, for whatever reason, then mediation is an automatic failure.
In the extreme case (10% of all divorces) one of the parties has a Axis II disorder of the personality (recognized or not by the court) and will appeal, bring things to motion, attempt wild contempt motions, and try to "fight it out in court". The worst combination of this kind of litigant is when they have a solicitor who supports their cause. Zealots who will believe anything their client's say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Same with collaborative law. Your ex likely feels that you two are too far apart for any hope of a negotiated settlement.
Depending on the setup in collaborative law a mental health professional may be involved and witnessing everything and work with the conflicted party to resolve matters. The worst kind of mental health professional in this situation is one that just lets the conflict to continue, fails to really investigate matters properly and watches their retainer burn down until they know that the money is all gone. (There are many experts out there who operate this way.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Rightly or wrongly, your ex feels that your stance is unreasonable and unsupportable and that what your ex is seeking will be supported by the courts.
Agreed. Start thinking about your position in the matter and not about how the system is the problem. You can address the systemic problems at a later date but, right now you need to focus on your position and addressing your problem before the court.

Good Luck!
Tayken

One of you is going to get a reality check, possibly both.[/quote]
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2012, 06:39 PM
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Yes, emotions don't belong here. Check.

I think i have had enough reality checks. I am happy to accept my circumstances and work with them but this is neither rewarded nor encouraged in any way.

Okay. I suck it up. Mortgage the house. Go to court. Stay level headed (read: stop the woe is me). Hope that i can recover some of these nutty legal costs -- for things i don't want to 'buy'.

More information:
My reasonable offer was (2 weeks after he resigned from his position):
-- imputed income at 50% of the average of his last three years line 150 adn then yearly reevaluation after that
-- 50%-50% of all section 7 expenses
-- no liquidating RESP account for the child

We are equally qualified and capable. No health issues.

Just been letting myself be pushed around by the idea that this is a legal system that rewards acrimonious and high conflict folks. I think there are *simple* strategies for ensuring families have done their best to cooperate on solutions before we put a "door #1" sign on litigation.

Vacation pout aside, i am pretty practical and factual.

Facts:
I have the T1 Generals for the last 2 years (90K+ gross)
Unless he transferred the title of his house, then it is his.
I have his email saying he is resigning in the face of being fired.
I have his email indicating that he is being heavily fined by the government for income tax 'mistakes'.
I have 11 clear letters requesting alternative dispute resolutions
I have two clear letters of my 'reasonable' offer
I hired an attorney only after i received the motion through the bailiff

None of this is fiction or emotion.

thank you for your wakeups and your good advice

Last edited by Hopefuldays; 03-31-2012 at 06:41 PM. Reason: messed up wording
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Old 04-01-2012, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopefuldays View Post
Yes, emotions don't belong here. Check.

I think i have had enough reality checks. I am happy to accept my circumstances and work with them but this is neither rewarded nor encouraged in any way.

Okay. I suck it up. Mortgage the house. Go to court. Stay level headed (read: stop the woe is me). Hope that i can recover some of these nutty legal costs -- for things i don't want to 'buy'.

More information:
My reasonable offer was (2 weeks after he resigned from his position):
-- imputed income at 50% of the average of his last three years line 150 adn then yearly reevaluation after that
-- 50%-50% of all section 7 expenses
-- no liquidating RESP account for the child

We are equally qualified and capable. No health issues.

Just been letting myself be pushed around by the idea that this is a legal system that rewards acrimonious and high conflict folks. I think there are *simple* strategies for ensuring families have done their best to cooperate on solutions before we put a "door #1" sign on litigation.

Vacation pout aside, i am pretty practical and factual.

Facts:
I have the T1 Generals for the last 2 years (90K+ gross)
Unless he transferred the title of his house, then it is his.
I have his email saying he is resigning in the face of being fired.
I have his email indicating that he is being heavily fined by the government for income tax 'mistakes'.
I have 11 clear letters requesting alternative dispute resolutions
I have two clear letters of my 'reasonable' offer
I hired an attorney only after i received the motion through the bailiff

None of this is fiction or emotion.

thank you for your wakeups and your good advice
All those facts may bode well for you come trial. But until then - they are unproven. Unfortuanately you cannot make someone else just go away, even if their position is not exactly 'reasonable'.

Thats the very point - we all have the right to have a Court hear our claims and rule on them. Nature of the beast.

I read in the paper not too long ago - some guy tried to litigate that he was the owner of the entire solar system, including planet earth. His claim was heard, and denied. Woulda save the taxpayers some money if it wasn't - but he had the right. Of course, he has been proclaimed a 'vexatious' litigant, and may now only bring cases to court with a Judges written authorization to do so.

Last edited by wretchedotis; 04-01-2012 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 04-01-2012, 04:57 PM
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That made me laugh
Thanks and yes, your points folks are all helpful.
When buddy litigated the ownership of the solar system, did his witnesses have to take days off work, drive far from home, and pay attorneys to represent them in court?
I have calmed down, am sucking it up, and hoping that Karma might play a role. In the meantime I will paint purple tulips and watch them in my garden and play board games with the kids.
this all makes me happier than fighting for ownership of the entire solar system.
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Old 04-06-2012, 08:33 PM
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The most common way people give up their power....
Is by thinking they don"t have any..
I had this written on a piece of paper while I did my submissions and looked at it over often....
Stay strong and remember you are not alone....
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