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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2014, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SadAndTired View Post
53 cases in EIGHT years in all of Canada is statistically significant?? Huh.

I wonder how many divorce/custody cases actually made it to court during that same time period. Thousands and thousands in Canada??

And, if the mother gets the majority of parental time in those 74 cases, the mother being the alienator about 2/3 of the time is likely statistically the same as 1/3 of the time it being the father (who may have less time with their children overall).
Yup, it's those pesky things called "math" and "logic". There's a difference between numbers and statistics. The number of cases (53 in eight years?) is meaningless unless you know the denominator. One could just as easily turn it around and say that out of all the custody cases which have been heard in court in Canada, only 58 have involved parental alienation, therefore it is a minor and trivial issue (which also would be incorrect, I would never call this trivial). I did a quick check with StatsCan, and in 2009-2010 alone, there were 1 250 active court cases involving child custody and access (excluding cases on support only). I suspect the denominator would be much larger over eight years. And as S&T says, given that women are more likely than men to be residential parents and to have more time with the children, it stands to reason that they would be identified as the "alienator" in the majority of cases. This is "predictable proportionality", not some form of gender bias.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2014, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
Oh crap... the squad. When one shows they all show....interestingly. Later ... happy holidays.
Oh please. This response is so lame. I am trying to make a valid point and you can't even make a reasonable response.

I have, in fact, read every post that you have written. Just because I don't agree with you does not make me part of a "squad". You are demonstrating the "us vs. them" mentality again. I have read every post but have only commented on a few that have really stood out for me.

When you can bring true "statistics", we can discuss this again.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2014, 10:02 PM
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lol
I'll just agree with you guys okay.

I'm so wrong. PAS shouldn't be entered in the DSM.
I'm so wrong. Women are not more prone than men for PAS.

Keep in mind that I said from the beginning that I didn't want this to be a gender thing. When the 3 of you stormed in it surely turned in to one. Same ol' same ol'.

Everything I write is wrong.

My responses are lame. I know S&T. Always a pleasure.

All of the psychiatrists, psychologists and peer reviewed journals are wrong.

You guys are correct. Thank you for correcting me on all of this. I appreciate it.

Merry x-mas.

Last edited by LovingFather32; 12-20-2014 at 10:07 PM.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2014, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mcdreamy View Post
Funny enough, Turkat re-published in 1999 and did in fact re-label his voodoo syndrome as Divorce Related Malicious Parent Syndrome.
LF, you used Mother Syndrome in your title. Why? Obviously your research would include the current label of Divorce Related Malicious PARENT Syndrome, right??

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
All of the psychiatrists, psychologists and peer reviewed journals are wrong.
And yet you quoted old data. Interesting.

Because you say you are a psychology grad, your opinion may be held with more weight than other posters' may be regarding these issues. It is important that you give current, accurate information that is relevant to today's court challenges.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2014, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
lol
I'll just agree with you guys okay.

I'm so wrong. PAS shouldn't be entered in the DSM.
I'm so wrong. Women are not more prone than men for PAS.

Keep in mind that I said from the beginning that I didn't want this to be a gender thing. When the 3 of you stormed in it surely turned in to one. Same ol' same ol'.

Everything I write is wrong.

My responses are lame. I know S&T. Always a pleasure.

All of the psychiatrists, psychologists and peer reviewed journals are wrong.

You guys are correct. Thank you for correcting me on all of this. I appreciate it.

Merry x-mas.
Dude, you can't start a thread with a lot of cut-n-paste about "malicious mother syndrome" and then say later you aren't the one making it "about gender".

And nobody stormed in. Several people disagreed with you. I still think it will be a cold day in hell before parental alienation syndrome or malicious mother syndrome turn up in the DSM-V, as they don't meet the clinical criteria for a syndrome (and perhaps more importantly, there's no $$ to be made by billing US insurance companies for their treatment, which drives most of the diagnosis creep in the DSM - see the saga of PMDD for an example).

The behavior you describe is wrong and despicable, no argument about that.
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2014, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
lol
I'll just agree with you guys okay.

I'm so wrong. PAS shouldn't be entered in the DSM.
I'm so wrong. Women are not more prone than men for PAS.

Keep in mind that I said from the beginning that I didn't want this to be a gender thing. When the 3 of you stormed in it surely turned in to one. Same ol' same ol'.

Everything I write is wrong.

My responses are lame. I know S&T. Always a pleasure.

All of the psychiatrists, psychologists and peer reviewed journals are wrong.

You guys are correct. Thank you for correcting me on all of this. I appreciate it.

Merry x-mas.
It is hard to respond to your posts and to address your comments when you make them and then change them and then change them again whenever a new, more clever comeback pops into your head.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2014, 10:28 PM
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Slow down ladies. Its one after the other tag team action here. Relax.

The title of this thread was based on an article. The article's name included the word "mother".

I stated very clearly that I agreed it should have read "parent". I've also said over and over again that I didn't want this to be a gender battle. Yep .. I got sucked in to it. But I want out.

There are no significant gender differences in who becomes an alienated or targeted parent.

The intent of the thread was to examine the underlying behaviors/diagnostic criteria, etc for the hostility and anxiety that divorce brings that bring forth these maladaptive behaviors.

Can we get off the gender train?

Thank you.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2014, 10:35 PM
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You can use my psychology background against me. I respect all opinions. The issue is you ladies. You just don't see it. You feel it will be a cold day in hell before DSM accepts PAS, etc.
There are MANY who disagree with you .. not just me.
Quote:
How do you see PAS handled differently if it is included in the next edition of the DSM? For example, do you believe there would be any changes to how PAS is diagnosed?
Quote:
Quote:
If the DSM-V Task Force of the American Psychiatric Association were to adopt
parental alienation as a “mental disorder”, then it would be advantageous to list it as a disorder rather than a syndrome. Dr. William Bernet, a psychiatrist submitted, along with a large committee of mental health and legal experts, a proposal to the DSM-V Task Force stating that Parental Alienation Disorder should be the diagnosis if the child’s symptoms are persistent enough and severe enough to meet the criteria for that disorder. I completely concur with Bernet and the rest of the committee’s proposed diagnostic criteria, which includes Dr. Richard A. Gardner’s original eight manifestations of PAS as well as some additional criteria including: the duration of the disturbance must be at least two months; the disturbance causes clinically significant impairment or distress in academic (occupational), social, and other important areas of
functioning; and the child’s refusal to have contact with the targeted parent is legitimate and unjustifiable in nature. Moreover, if parental alienation were to be included in the DSM, it would likely prompt insurance companies to provide coverage for alienated families, stimulate more global scientific research studies on this very important topic, stimulate the development of
standardized psychological tests that measure and determine whether parental alienation is truly occurring, stimulate the development of training programs for psychology students in graduate schools, and increase the likelihood that children will get timely and effective mental health treatment.
Regarding the storming in .. all I'm saying is when you show up .. its always together. And its always to refute anything I say. I'm a big boy though. I can handle it.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2014, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
You can use my psychology background against me. I respect all opinions. The issue is you ladies. You just don't see it. You feel it will be a cold day in hell before DSM accepts PAS, etc.
There are MANY who disagree with you .. not just me.
Regarding the storming in .. all I'm saying is when you show up .. its always together. And its always to refute anything I say. I'm a big boy though. I can handle it.
Funny how you often post a conciliatory post (like the one above this) and then a post where you fan the fire again. Very contradictory.

Just as an aside, from the very document you quoted, this:

Quote:
11. In your practice, have you seen this alienating behaviour more in men or
women?

I do not see any significant gender differences in who becomes an alienated or target
parent. Both mothers and fathers have an equal chance of being alienated.
And this

Quote:
In the vast majority of cases, men continue to hold greater economic power over
women today. During the separation, divorce, and/or post-divorce processes, many
mothers living apart from their partners or ex-partners experience significant financial
hardship, which in and of itself can ignite the start of PAS. These mothers may barely
be able to afford to put food on the table so hiring an experienced, skilled attorney is
out of the question. Driven by a sense of vulnerability and socio-economic inequality, it
is not uncommon to see some mothers turn into alienators and program their children
against their fathers.
It is also not uncommon for alienating men to withhold spousal support and/or child
support payments because they feel so enraged with anger. It’s a way of getting even
with the mother of the children. In these cases, PAS tends to escalate even further when
the alienating father is court-mandated to make back payments for spousal and/or child
support. Additionally, it is not uncommon when court-ordered to pay spousal and/or
child support payments that the alienating father will suddenly fight for sole custody as
a way to not have to pay the support. Given our economic climate, it’s also common for
fathers to be laid off from jobs such as those in the construction industry, etc. Suddenly,
they are not able to pay spousal and/or child support. I’ve seen some of these men turn
into alienators and program their children against their mothers. These types of battles
tend to ensue for a very long time whereby the alienated children are the ones who
really end up paying for it.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2014, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
Slow down ladies. Its one after the other tag team action here. Relax.

The title of this thread was based on an article. The article's name included the word "mother".

I stated very clearly that I agreed it should have read "parent". I've also said over and over again that I didn't want this to be a gender battle. Yep .. I got sucked in to it. But I want out.

There are no significant gender differences in who becomes an alienated or targeted parent.

The intent of the thread was to examine the underlying behaviors/diagnostic criteria, etc for the hostility and anxiety that divorce brings that bring forth these maladaptive behaviors.

Can we get off the gender train?

Thank you.
I know S&T. I even said that very same point in my post above!!!

If you care to read my posts that is.
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