Divorce Law are a Joke and Dads are the Punch Line

[dadtotheend]

Quit worrying about how other fathers got screwed. Focus on your own case and direct your energy to optimizing your result, as opposed to perceived unfairness.

Yes, there is some bias, but you can easily trump it by working hard yourself. Blaming it on the system is for losers.

[pokeman]

thanks everyone - got some idea's and confidence - all your comments i have benefited from in some way, off to do battle - will try and report back before my 9 weeks is up and let you know how i made out

[LostFather]

Originally Posted by Lindsay

Decent Dad,

I understand that your post was meant to be informative, but the outcome of your case may not necessarily be the outcome of everyone else's case. I used the word "likely" simply because there can be no definte or guaranteed result. Custody and child support is determined by the issues and circumstances of each case and how information is presented to the court.

I think it's very unfair to say that there are different rules for mothers and fathers. There are many cases where the father is the primary caregiver and the mother the support payor. In that kind of situation, the court would not give the payor special treatment simply because she is a woman. There is no male and female when it comes to child support. There is, however, a payor and a recipient.

Lindsay

I have to disagree Lindsay, I am new to this site but not new to the Ontario Justice System, Family Court.

I can tell you that the court system is very one sided, and it is not towards the father, If you look at the stats, less than 15% of men are granted custody, of those 15%, only a small fraction are awarded CS. I proved to the court that my access was approx 43% of the time over one year period. My ex was going out of time for work and personal reasons. The Judge said it wasn't absolute. My ex makes approx 15K more a year than I, I still have to provide a home, food, clothing and other essentials, yet the judge was not moved.

I'm left with appeal, with I've had 2 appearances and am self representing. I've been left in financial ruins, lots of debts with lawyers, and I do not even have 1st right of refusal. You see since we've made application or submitted evidence, via calendar, my ex now takes the children with her and leaves them in a hotel over the weekend, or through the week, it seems that her co workers and friends seem to have more right to access my children than I do. She admitted at trial, that she does this, she admitted to switching daycare providers without telling, meaning I would go to pick up my children after work, and they would not be there! My lawyer kept on asking her, did you inform the father of the changes, one after the other, was a clear no! The Judge didn't even blink an eye, she has thwarted access, either by phone or in person....Judge...nadda.

These are just the tips of the iceberg, he ignored our objections, did not mention them in his decision, we pointed out case law, he did not mention. He handed out his decision and retroactive, gave me Christmas access, I was to have my children from when they get out of school, to Christmas, this was Dec 24th. Oh, and there was the OCL report, that she asked for and the curt endorsed or recommended.....IT WAS IN MY FAVOR... joint custody and equal access,,,,.judge ignored it!

So, sorry if I don't relay believe that there is no gender bias. I see that your reply was some years ago, I wonder, if you get the or read it, if your opinion is still the same today?

[injusticeman]

There are a lot of Laws that are a joke but who would listen. I noticed that in this country that a prisoner/criminal have more rights to a judge that a divorced dad. Or you get better treatment if you are sick in prison than a public hospital in this country. This is no joke! An animal sleeps on the street, it is news but a man sleeps on the street because he cannot support himself and family and you don't hear anything.
So don't expect justice, my friend.
I went thru all this stuff with the court.
the children and yourself are the ones that loose.

[leafsrule]

This is my first post, so I'll try to be diplomatic while chiming into this conversation. I work for FRO, so I can give you a perspective from what I've read so far.

1). Lindsay is absolutely correct in the posts from what I've read. There is no "father" or "mother" in the court system, there are only payors and recipients. The law neither cares whether you are male or female, in fact, judges are seeing more females as payors than ever before. The typical response by men is that they are getting screwed over or the law works against them or it favours women, absolutely not true.

2). Your court order is pretty much only as good as the lawyer who represents you or the documentation/evidence/research you've done yourself. If you have a very experienced, reputable lawyer, that's 75% of the battle won. You need good representation for sure. Sure, it costs money but it also saves a lot of money potentially and frustration in the end. I see so many badly worded court orders that lawyers agree on in court or draw up settlement conferences that you swear these people failed the bar exam. The judge doesn't purposely want to screw you over, they look at all the evidence presented before them and makes their ruling based on what they see, hear and are told. If your lawyer is ill-prepared or is there just to make money off you, well, you may be in trouble for years to come.

3). FRO is not an incompetent or evil organization. We simply enforce the court orders which are sent to us. We don't set the guidelines for support, we don't adjust things automatically, we have no say in what goes on in any courtroom where a judge is present. Think it's easy to do this? Consider most courts are overbooked, overworked and struggle to keep up with the load of cases (of which more than a few in the family court system are simply frivilous or unnecessary) and cannot send them in a timely manner to FRO. Therefore, they are late in coming and then are quick as FRO can process them, there's lots of catch-up to do to adjust everything. Now, take one week with hundreds if not thousands of cases across Ontario and multiple it by 52 weeks. Now you're talking about 100,000+ cases across Ontario in which are done in the family court system, it's staggering really.

4). Never, ever, represent yourself unless you have a solid if not spectacular grasp of the law. Judges hate when you try to represent yourself and show up not knowing either how to proceed, not ready with documents and trying to tell them how the laws work. You aren't smarter than a judge nor will you be able to win them over with your charm or perceived good looks. Come to court with twice as much information, evidence and correspondence... but come with a good lawyer.

5). Child support is for children. Simple concept but you'd be surprised how often this is lost when it comes to people in court or with FRO. Most times, the fighting or bitterness has become so deep that the payor or recipient makes the support personal (ie "I want my support" instead of "Is there support for my child" or "You are taking all my money" instead of "I'm paying a good portion for my child"). Payors always think the recipient is spending the money on themselves instead of the children. This could be true I'm sure in some cases but remember, it's child support, it's helping raise children. Children aren't cheap yet some payors balk at either paying the full amount monthly or paying at all because they think the recipient doesn't deserve it. Recipients also have to understand too, you can't ask a payor to put in more than they can afford too, payors still have to live and try to have a life too. Some recipients are out for blood and take it to extremes when it comes to asking for every little thing from the payor. Again, you need a good lawyer to make sense of what you can afford, what's fair for both sides and what is actually necessary to ask for or pay for special expenses.

6). Payors are their own worst enemies when it comes to FRO or even the courts. Sorry, it's true in a lot of cases, it really is. Payors need to disclose everything in court, any evidence left out makes the judge wonder if they are trying to hide something or get away with paying less. With FRO, if you don't communicate, bad things happen such as enforcement. It's a frustrating process going through the court system, dealing with an ex, not seeing your children every day and then dealing with FRO but you have to handle it calmly, professionally and rationally. FRO didn't cause you to be separated/divorced/estranged from your significant other, so don't take it out on people at FRO. As well, FRO didn't write or make up your court order, we have absolutely nothing to do with it. FRO only enforces court orders as they are written. If there's something missing, not worded correctly, too ambiguous or just poorly done in your court order, either that's your lawyer's fault or your fault (if you represented yourself). FRO cannot change it for you, that has to be done in court. You also have to be responsible for your case if you are with FRO. You won't be reminded when your child turns 18 and support can be ended, so if you phone up when the child is 25 and you are mad for paying extra years, that's not FRO's fault. If you think you are paying too much, go back to court, FRO cannot lower it. If you think you should have custody or the child has moved back in with you, don't phone back two years later and expect adjustments to be made in a day. It takes weeks to get all the proper documents in place and things done, not days.

7). You can attract more flies with honey than vinegar. Silly saying but it's true. Want your life to be easier, try to get along with the payor or recipient. Cases turn bad because of hostility and bitterness towards one another. Swallow your pride, put on a happy face and try to work with the other person. Sounds simply but it's no doubt difficult but will save you lots of hurt and time down the road. Just do what you're supposed to do if you are the payor: Pay the monthly support on time every month to the recipient or FRO. If you are making more, then tell the recipient and make an agreement for a new amount based on the child support tables (or a new amount negotiated for spousal support). If you are earning less, tell this to the recipient and either go back to court or ask the recipient if they will accept less until you start earning more.

I hear every day how the system is set up for men to fail or is tilted towards women and I can tell you this is just a poor excuse by payors to get out of what they really have to do. Yes, you may have had poor representation or entered into an agreement that was probably not the best possible one in terms of being fair but it's not going to stay that way forever. If you think an agreement isn't fair, consult a new lawyer or phone FRO and someone will tell you what you need to do. The biggest error I see is that people, both payors and recipients don't take responsibility for their own cases or don't take time to really understand what they entered into or even what FRO does/doesn't do. Take some time to read over your order, do some research and chat on forums like this to get a better picture of what's going on. And don't forget to get a good lawyer too, I can't stress that enough.

[dadtotheend]

Originally Posted by leafsrule

3). FRO is not an incompetent or evil organization. We simply enforce the court orders which are sent to us. We don't set the guidelines for support, we don't adjust things automatically, we have no say in what goes on in any courtroom where a judge is present. Think it's easy to do this? Consider most courts are overbooked, overworked and struggle to keep up with the load of cases (of which more than a few in the family court system are simply frivilous or unnecessary) and cannot send them in a timely manner to FRO. Therefore, they are late in coming and then are quick as FRO can process them, there's lots of catch-up to do to adjust everything. Now, take one week with hundreds if not thousands of cases across Ontario and multiple it by 52 weeks. Now you're talking about 100,000+ cases across Ontario in which are done in the family court system, it's staggering really.

Uhh, yes it is incompetent. I don't care if it's about funding, overworked/overloaded courts, whatever. The FRO does a crappy job meeting it's mandate.

The FRO is very difficult to get a hold of on the phone, and takes WAY too long to implement the orders they are sent. Don't blame it on the courts. I have heard first hand dozens of horror stories in my business about the way your organization operates.

I acknowledge that there are incompetent payors and recipients out there and I also believe that the gender bias crutch is an excuse. I discount many of the first hand accounts I have heard because the complaints are often as much about the person making the complaint as they are about the FRO.

But don't try and paint a blamess picture of the FRO's performance. You don't honestly give your employer anything higher than a 2 out of 10 in overall performance do you?

Most of the rest of us, I dare say, don't.

[leafsrule]

dadtotheend:

I'm sorry you feel that way but you are entitled to your opinion and I accept it.

Uhh, yes it is incompetent. I don't care if it's about funding, overworked/overloaded courts, whatever. The FRO does a crappy job meeting it's mandate.

Well, I see firsthand everyday people don't a great job and trying their very best to help people out, so I know FRO meets it's mandate quite well. There's approx. 180,000 cases with FRO, so if you hear about the odd one that people think FRO messed up on, well, even if it was true, that's still a very, very good track record.

The FRO is very difficult to get a hold of on the phone, and takes WAY too long to implement the orders they are sent. Don't blame it on the courts. I have heard first hand dozens of horror stories in my business about the way your organization operates.

FRO opens at 8am and closes at 5pm. Try early in the morning or just before 5pm, you will get through. If you've heard the way FRO operates, well, again that's other people's opinions. We have just as many happy recipients (or more) who praise FRO than payors who badmouth the organization. It's all about perspective. Actually, there are a lot of happy payors too, so I know there are people who are really happy with the way things are done at FRO.

But don't try and paint a blamess picture of the FRO's performance. You don't honestly give your employer anything higher than a 2 out of 10 in overall performance do you?

Yes, I do give FRO higher than a 2 out of 10. I would rate FRO in the high digits for sure, at least an 8 if not higher. When I know the recipient and children are getting the support they deserve and the payor is also satisfied with things, then I know the system is working the way it's designed.

Do you think I'd still be working for an organization if I rated it a 2 out of 10? If I could get you into our building, I'd show you how things really run, trust me, it's a 180 degree turn than what you think FRO is all about or what happens behind the scenes.

[dadtotheend]

Seeing people doing a great job from the inside does not equal the perception of the users of the program from the outside. And since you can't get me into your building then what you could but can't show me doesn't matter. As I understand it, you're only available for business via telephone or in writing. That's not very good service.

I have not heard one person tell me that they think the FRO is doing a great job. Every story, not the odd one, I hear rates them pathetically. Maybe that's a case of squeaky wheels wanting grease, and the happy ones don't make their contentment an issue.

Availability in a short window at the beginning or end of the day doesn't make for great customer service. If my lawyer, or my doctor, or my banker or my baker is only available for an hour or so out of their nine hour day, then I consider that poor service.

You seem genuinely motivated and committed to your work, and that's great. I believe the FRO's shortcomings are about funding and too high caseloads. It's great that there are committed people in the FRO, but if there is woefully too few them, that only explains why it does a crappy job, it doesn't change it.

Thank you for your perspective, and your lengthy insight. I'm afraid you are going to be hearing from a lot more people who share my view than yours though. This topic deserves a thread on it's own. Maybe you could start one and include a poll asking to rate the FRO.

Thanks again.

[leafsrule]

I'm only on here to try to help people out. I will see how things go on this forum. If people are willing to accept my help, I will try to help them out as much as possible. I suppose if I get too much criticism or backlash from people upset with FRO, then perhaps I should just move on. I'm not doing this for any other reason than to help people out and try to get people to realize the rules and how they can help themselves out too with just a few things to consider.

I understand why you may be frustrated with FRO or your perception of the organization. For all I know, it may be validated in what you've gone through, so I won't attempt to give you a canned response.

I do have to say in regards to not being able to get through to FRO, yes, that's a huge concern. It's two things really: Not nearly enough funding for enough people to properly handle more clients per day (ask Dalton about more funding for FRO, we've asked for years) and the amount of ongoing active cases. I would roughly say 10-20 cases are being opened up for every one being closed, so you can appreciate every year the amount of work goes up and without proper funding, the more people have to wait. Wait times are approximately 20 minutes during the daytime, which is why I suggested early in the morning or right before 5pm. In terms of getting through to other organizations or professions, sure, I know I can get through to Rogers or Bell really quickly (within 5 minutes) but it's a totally different ballgame too (private business vs. public).

And yes, there are many hardworking dedicated people like myself working for FRO and there are people who shouldn't be working there too. However, they don't seem to last long, mistakes cost people their jobs, so they eventually leave FRO.

[dadtotheend]

For the record, my personal involvement has been limited to filling the paperwork to withdraw our order from FRO involvement.

Sadly, I will probably be re-registering with FRO, as my ex now owes me CS after 4 years of me paying her SS that exceeded the CS she owed me. So I expect to have more personal experience in the coming months.

Thankfully I am pretty confident that I know what to do and even feel that I could self-represent myself in bringing the court ordered adjustment to the CS that is called for, but that my ex is reneging on in only the first month. I did use a lawyer for my custody, access and financial settlement, and she agrees that I could probably do it on my own from here on.

I base my opinons on the dozens and dozens of first hand accounts I have heard from my clients over the last 10 years, and from the many many posts I have read here.

I think it's great that someone from the FRO is here and hope that you stick around, but I fear that you are going to become a whipping post for people's frustration. As an obvious Leafs fan, that's about the last thing you need