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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2017, 08:29 AM
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We have very little details

We have only mom's story .. and to be honest she doesn't seem confident in her own case. I think at one point she said she was scared he would win. She admits kids would be devastated if she lessened time with dad and that he loves them. One could only postulate that "more" time would benefit them.

There's no abuse and he's almost at 50/50 anyways.

So he wants equal parenting and he also wants CS to reflect that. So did I. I was also in arrears.

Why won't mom allow at least 40% I wonder? Could it be the 40% threshold rule perhaps?

Anyways ....... I find it ridiculous that there's a huge fight over an increase over a little bit of time.

I find it entertaining how Ange won't reply to my "hypothetical situation I posted" (He did all his legwork and was serious about parenting).

I cited her case as an example but I find it's very representative of MANY parents who deny 50/50 relationships.

That was the question. Why do parents deny 50/50, equal relationships to other bio parents.

I guess some here are okay with "I can't give him a day or 2 extra because I feel like its for money...so no...I want to fight in court". I'm not so comfortable with that answer..but that's just me..We could just as easily say that she's denying it for $$ (just under 40% threshold...coincidence? Not sure).

Either way .. I'll change the topic Rock....

I spoke with a psychologist who showed me some awesome peer reviewed journals outlining the importance of "Identity" of children/teens and how it's correlated with equal relations with both parents.

He said it was even used in a case for 50/50 where...yep..a mom said dad only wanted to spend time with his kids for money (common trend to deny 50/50 parenting I suppose).

The judge apparently took the study very seriously and awarded the 50/50. I'll see if I can find the case.

Last edited by LovingFather32; 01-11-2017 at 08:33 AM.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2017, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
Get you? It's a thread about why parents deny other parents 50/50 relationships with their biological children....not traps or a game of tag.

If he came in with a stellar parenting plan, including great info on exchanges, activities, school, etc. What if he took a "Parenting After Separation Course" to better comprehend the complexities of parenting after separation? What if he tells you he just wants to be civil and co-parent in an amicable fashion and scrap the BS stuff?

All hypothetically-speaking ....he did all the leg work, desperately seeking more time with his kids...Would you still say "no"? What's your response?

(And please don't respond by saying he won't do any of this ... he sure as hell could .. its a hypothetical scenario)

THIS from Stripes is exactly what I believe in MY case:
"Custody is not black and white: either Parent is a terrible parent and should get zero access, or Parent is a good parent and should get 50%. Lots of parents fall somewhere in between - they can't or don't want to cope with all the demands of equal parenting, but they don't totally suck either. Holding the line at 35% (or 20% or whatever) could be a reasonable compromise, depending on the situation. It's certainly possible for someone to be a good-enough parent at less-than-50%, but a not-so-good-enough parent when it comes to taking equal responsibility."

Read this article as well:

www.drgary.ca/Paper_on_access_schedules.pdf

He talks about how children go through "switching" when they are subject to equal time in two polarized families. He states:

This changing, or “switching” as the children often put it, accomplishes a good relationship with each parent, at the expense of the child’s development of a consistent self and personality. The more polarized the parents, the more the child must change, and the less the child can develop his/her own personality.

He also goes on to state:

Both experience and research show that equal time is not necessary to achieve adequate and sufficient parenting. Even in married families, time and involvement with the children is often not equal."

It is actually a pretty interesting article and perhaps adds a different perspective to this thread. I agree that you should focus less on my situation and maybe serve to highlight different viewpoints. I assure you that there are differing opinions on this topic and we don't all need to agree on it. I heard privately from SEVERAL people on here who were not willing to put forth their views publicly because they didn't want to be scrutinized for them. That is the truth. I know that in my case, which you do not have all the facts on, I feel best interests of my KIDS do not require 50-50 access. We disagree and that is fine. I do want to add, (and I think someone brought up before), that sometimes posters can become wrapped up in what is best for the PARENT and not what is best for the kids. I notice that you gave ZERO mention to the fact that I stated I had a child with special needs (ADHD, medication,etc). Consistency has been key to his success and it has been a long road there. This is absolutely a huge factor for consideration.
Anyway, all I am saying is that in a thread where you wish to discuss the 50-50 argument, you should be open to the opinion that is opposite to yours, for consideration at least.

(Sorry I can't figure out how to get out of italics mode)
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2017, 08:48 AM
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A friend of mine divorced when her kids were young. Her ex was not at all able to handle 50/50 but she forced him and provided as much support as possible (shes a social worker which explains a lot). They do not have an amicable relationship and he does some seriously ridiculous things to her. She was adamant though that kids best interest come first. It wasnt easy and they had to have some very difficult conversations. These including encouraging him to move closer so their oldest would be comfortable, making an effort to eat at the table as a family, and attend activities he had no interest in seeing his kids in.

They both have new partners and new children and he pulled the stupid "your new sibling is not your full sibling" stunt with them. Hes not perfect but as my friend said "hes their dad, for better or for worse I picked him to be their father so we have to work together".

I love my friend dearly and I have watched this struggle over 15 years. The kids are old enough to make their own decisions but she still enforces with them that they spend time with their dad and their sibling. Why? Because she knows the benefit of connections and she has spent a great deal of time working with alienated parents as her job.

Personally I think the courts would be best served with mandatory counseling and parenting classes for every divorced couple. Teaching parents how to work together is important!
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2017, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
as my friend said "hes their dad, for better or for worse I picked him to be their father so we have to work together".
You see variations on this idea all over the place, that you picked this person to be your kids' other parent, so obviously you thought they would be a good parent.

It's BS.

People change. People lie. People manipulate. People may even realize that their partner would be a poor parent, but figure that their own parenting will make up for it.

Then, true colours are revealed, the rose-coloured glasses are removed, the family is torn apart. And suddenly, your ex, who turned out to NOT be someone you would have chosen to have children with, has the children SOLO instead of you being around to make up for their inadequate parenting.

I know in my case, had I known then what I know now about my ex, I would NOT have gotten married and yes, never had my children.

You can say "oh, I don't regret what happened because I got my wonderful children out of it," but I call BS on that too. Sure, if I had never married my ex, I would not have these particular wonderful children, but I would have married someone else, who would likely have been a much better parent, and had different, equally wonderful, children instead.

The person my ex turned out to be to is not the person I picked to be the other parent to my children. I picked the façade person that I had been manipulated into believing was truth. That person never existed, and is certainly not the one with whom I am stuck coparenting my children now.

It might be good child development to have 50-50 relationships with parents who are both good people who just didn't work together as romantic partners. It cannot be good child development to be forced to spend equal time with one parent who is narcissistic, lying, selfish or bigoted.

Last edited by Rioe; 01-11-2017 at 09:35 AM.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2017, 10:02 AM
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In my friends case, she knew her ex was lazy and immature but figured he would grow up with a child. They got pregnant before getting married. She took responsibility for her poor choice and focused on whats best for her kids. Like it or not in her case its not bs and I don't point it out to make her a saint. I use it as an example of someone who choose to admit her mistake and not punish her kids for it. Her ex is most definitely not a good guy to her but he is an excellent father. Which is the key point in 50:50. You can hate each other all you want. Each of you can be giant jerks. You can do stupid stuff in your personal life. What truly matters is how you parent your kids and just because someone cheated, is a narcissist, makes poor decisions or is just an all around asshole, doesn't mean they aren't a good parent and shouldn't have the starting point as 50:50.

My partner and his ex hate each other and she likes to lie about their relationship and who he is. The truth is he was (and is) a good father. When he gets uppity about how he doesn't know who this woman is because he never expected her to act this way I remind him "you chose her to be the mother of your children. You had five years before becoming a father to see who she truly was. You chose to stay."
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2017, 10:06 AM
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I was in what is referred to as an "intact marriage" for 30 years. My son's father certainly didn't bother his ass to spend much time with his son throughout all of those years - only when it suited him and there wasn't someone on TV which he preferred to watch. Now that we are divorced father RARELY phones his son. I continually pepper my son with "call your father... he is your father..."

Now I am pretty sure that if there were $$$ involved with communicating with an adult-child my ex would be very interested in seeing his son.

Just sayin...

Ange - did your ex ever express desire to 50/50 parent in the past, by a pleasant email or conversation? Or did this newfound desire merely happen after he retained a lawyer to dispute the CS and arrears?
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2017, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rioe View Post
It might be good child development to have 50-50 relationships with parents who are both good people who just didn't work together as romantic partners. It cannot be good child development to be forced to spend equal time with one parent who is narcissistic, lying, selfish or bigoted.
I agree with Tayken's opinion that mental health professionals should be heavily involved. Personality disorders such as narcissism, paranoia, anxiety, depression, etc are all very prevalent and could potentially affect parenting styles for sure. Warring ex's are not objective enough to make these labels on each other unfortunately.

Remember, a partner may behave strangely with an ex but be a "SPECTACULAR" parent and benefit the child more by being in their life. Ex's just arn't qualified to make diagnosis' of personality/parenting and denying access in the process.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2017, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
You can hate each other all you want. Each of you can be giant jerks. You can do stupid stuff in your personal life. What truly matters is how you parent your kids and just because someone cheated, is a narcissist, makes poor decisions or is just an all around asshole, doesn't mean they aren't a good parent and shouldn't have the starting point as 50:50.
I still don't know how you can reconcile the awful things about this hypothetical bad person with them being a good parent. They are certainly a poor role model! 'Do as I say and not as I do' isn't very effective.

Selfish, cheating, hateful, narcissistic people who make poor decisions are just not the kind of people we want around children. If we had relatives like that, we would limit our children's exposure to them. If we interviewed a potential daycare provider or babysitter and found them to be that type of person, we would keep looking elsewhere. If we were married to that sort of person, we would do the bulk of the parenting and run interference between them and the children.

I just cannot believe someone who is an 'all around asshole' could possibly be a good parent. Parenting is HARD WORK and some people never step up to the plate. And yet the children are expected to go there anyway! This is how family of origin (FOO) issues like personality disorders start (and more children grow up to be people who would be poor parents!).

But we only care about neglect or abuse when determining access, and not about more subtle forms of bad parenting.

50-50 as the default is great, so no parent creates false status quos or plays gatekeeper in the immediate aftermath of the breakup. But there has to be a mechanism for deviating from it when the quality differential between the two people's parenting is plain to see.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2017, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ange71727 View Post
Read this article as well:

www.drgary.ca/Paper_on_access_schedules.pdf

He talks about how children go through "switching" when they are subject to equal time in two polarized families.
Dr. Gary? lol Who's that? Why not just watch Dr. Phil and follow all of his advice? lol
I prefer caselaw, CLRA rules of family law. Especially stuff like "Maximum Contact".
Quote:
It stands as the only specific factor which Parliament has seen fit to single out as being something which the judge must consider. By mentioning this factor, Parliament has expressed its opinion that contact with each parent is valuable, and that the judge should ensure that this contact is maximized."
In your case, the father is asking for maximum contact and in my opinion .. guessing that he is just money hungry isn't a good enough reason to deny the small amount he's asking. 8 years of "almost" 50/50 and showing that the kids are doing well while in his care should be proof enough, let alone Rule 24(4) hasn't been met to affect his ability to parent.

Quote:
Both experience and research show that equal time is not necessary to achieve adequate and sufficient parenting. Even in married families, time and involvement with the children is often not equal."
Nope, it's not necessary. Nobody here said that. 50/50 is not for everyone. In my opinion it is in your case though.

Quote:
I heard privately from SEVERAL people on here who were not willing to put forth their views publicly because they didn't want to be scrutinized for them.
Peeps are PM'ing you because they are cognizant that a good majority of posters here support an equal relationship with both parents. Your criteria doesn't qualify for denying a few extra hours of parenting time.

To be clear, I'm receiving PM's also with peeps agreeing that it's just a minuscule amount of time he's asking and that you're causing drama for no reason. They also don't want to be scrutinised on the thread. People should post what they feel....I don't think there's any right/wrong answers...we're on a political forum.

Quote:
I notice that you gave ZERO mention to the fact that I stated I had a child with special needs (ADHD, medication,etc).
This is what I mean. You're digging to make him an inadequate parent.

Are you trying to tell me that all this time at 35% he';s never gave his child meds or dealt with any of his ADHD behaviors? Seriously? Don't get me started .. I work in mental health .. what a crock!

I see you still refuse to answer my question. What if he did all the "legwork", took classes, had an ironclad parenting plan and wanted to start fresh with you without any conflict"?

I know you like to ignore this because you're dead set on denying your children an equal relationship .. even if he was the best dad in the world. That's what kills me.
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2017, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Rioe View Post
I still don't know how you can reconcile the awful things about this hypothetical bad person with them being a good parent. They are certainly a poor role model! 'Do as I say and not as I do' isn't very effective.

Selfish, cheating, hateful, narcissistic people who make poor decisions are just not the kind of people we want around children. If we had relatives like that, we would limit our children's exposure to them. If we interviewed a potential daycare provider or babysitter and found them to be that type of person, we would keep looking elsewhere. If we were married to that sort of person, we would do the bulk of the parenting and run interference between them and the children.

I just cannot believe someone who is an 'all around asshole' could possibly be a good parent. Parenting is HARD WORK and some people never step up to the plate. And yet the children are expected to go there anyway! This is how family of origin (FOO) issues like personality disorders start (and more children grow up to be people who would be poor parents!).

But we only care about neglect or abuse when determining access, and not about more subtle forms of bad parenting.

50-50 as the default is great, so no parent creates false status quos or plays gatekeeper in the immediate aftermath of the breakup. But there has to be a mechanism for deviating from it when the quality differential between the two people's parenting is plain to see.
I pretty much agree with this. 50/50 as a start but if one parent decides they only want to have children 25% of the time then that is ok as well. A person can still be a great/effective parent even if their time is not 50/50. To criticize people who want less time is not good. Some people simply find themselves, for whatever reasons, to be better parents this way. Not everyone wants to be Mr. Mom.

I wonder if we're getting a bit off topic. Are we talking about custody or access/parenting time.
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