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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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  #461 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2017, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachnana View Post
Nesting is the only way I would accept a 2-2-5-5 or 7-7 or any other shuffling back and forth schedule is good for any child.

No case studies to prove it's best, no studies based on whose opinion? Just my own feelings, plus talking with young 12-14 year olds who hate it.
Ready, set, case law.

Quote:
determines is in the children’s best interest. That may be possible over time. However, one of the very common orders made by the court is what is referred to as 5-5-2-2 split over a 14-day cycle. That is what I intend to order in regards to these parties, with some modification.

The benefit of this schedule is the children spend significant time with both parents. There are not long absences. And particularly in regards to Ms. Maurice’s current work schedule, it means that she will have time with the children when she is not at work, and for the most part will be at work when the children are with their father. [ Ask about next weekend she works]

[39] The benefits of this for the parties and the children in my view are substantial. The parties have close to equal time with their children, the children know that every Monday and Tuesday they are with their Mom, every Wednesday and Thursday they are with their Dad and every two weeks, there is a five-day weekend essentially with each parent. This eliminates any requirements for drop offs other than at school. I note that both parties have said that they have a full set of items for the children in their own home and there is little, if any need, for the children to move things back and forth.
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  #462 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2017, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
This was a great read as well.



In DBF v BF, 2012 ABQB 520 (CanLII) http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc...&resultIndex=1



Dad was an EOW with one weekday visit or so and he wanted 50/50. The mother came with a whole slew of reasons that dad shouldn't have it... including:







So what happened you ask?



Well, the 8 year old child was happy and thriving:







There was certainly a high level of conflict and inability to communicate or get along:







Here's what happened:







Thank you judge for adding to the beautiful caselaw supporting 50/50 regimes.


Great read. Thanks!


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  #463 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2017, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
Many kids are happy and thriving. That doesn't mean there are no material changes in circumstances.

In this case:http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc...&resultIndex=1

The 8 year old girl was happy and thriving. Mom said changes to the schedule would be useless as she was already thriving and happy. Dad was an EOW with some midweek access.

Regarding material changes, the judge had this to say:


and (B.F is dad)



Ange, I understand that you don't think dad's new relationship, etc won't be taken in to consideration for a material change.....but just read this judges thoughts.

Also, a "material change" was the fact that although both parents have shielded the child from conflict rather well.......they may not be able to under "ANY" parenting arrangement...not just 50/50. As seen below:



Anyhow......dad got 50/50.

I just wanted to address your thoughts on "Happy & Thriving" = no change to 50/50. It can certainly still change to 50/50.
I think the initial order was an interim order, have you come across anything with a final eow order being changed to 50/50 ?
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Old 02-01-2017, 12:48 PM
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Case law written for adults by adults. Makes them all feel good about splitting a child's life into 2.

Show me a study or case law that has a child agreeing to 2-2-5-5 or 7-7 and maybe I will rethink my stance.

As it's stands I believe it's something that makes the adults feel good and involved but not the child.
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  #465 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2017, 01:30 PM
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My case is living proof. My daughter absolutely LOVES the split schedule.

She's the most happy, fun little girl I've ever met. She loves the drives back and forth especially, as we sing in the car, get hot chocolates, etc.

I have provided many studies, case law and parliaments thoughts (Maximum Contact) throughout the thread that shows children seem to have healthier development with equal parenting. Parents also report greater life stisfaction and over all health (less depression, etc).

For some reasons, parents, such as this mother, don't seem to give kids the benefit of the doubt.

Such as ... http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc...resultIndex=12
Quote:
[32] At trial, the parties departed from their previous conciliatory mode with respect to the parenting schedule. Although Mr. Celotti views the current arrangements for access as acceptable, Mrs. Celotti requests that the court modify the current arrangements. She perceives that the children are unsettled due to the significant amount of “shuffling back and forth” that is inherent in Dr. Morris' recommended access schedule (these are the mother’s terms). The mother believes that the children live with a sense of instability and uncertainty. As such, the mother's proposal with respect to access is as follows:

1. Alternate weekends from Friday afternoon pickup at school to Sunday evening;

2. Midweek access to all three children, on Wednesday;

3. Eliminate the one on one access, on Mondays/Tuesdays;

4. One week about, for each parent for the months of July and August.
As in many cases, after an assessment by a child psychologist (yes they SPOKE to the child Beach .. like you mentioned) revealed that:

Quote:
Dr. Morris’ and the father’s evidence did not support the mother’s conclusions that the children are unsettled by the current arrangement. Dr. Morris observed that the father had a rich and warm relationship with the children, which continues to flourish notwithstanding the separation; the children were prospering and doing well and adjusting to the separation as well as could be expected
The judge, child psychologist, after hearing the children's accounts and weighing all the evidence found that...
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[34] To the contrary of the mother’s assertion, I find that the children present as stable. To the contrary of the mother’s assertions, I find that the children are not confused with the schedule.
As I've pointed out throughout the thread....if you can not provide any OBJECTIVE evidence as to why an equal parenting regime wouldn't work .... you're not going to get far. MAXIMUM Contact will trump all.

Quote:
[37] In this case the mother has not adduced any objective evidence of any negative impact of maximizing the children’s contact with their father. To the contrary, the evidence supports that maximum contact with the father will promote the best interests of the children as per s. 24 of the Children’s Law Reform Act[8].
Of course equal parenting was ordered and the judge did not buy that the kids could not handle having 2 homes. My daughter would certainly agree.

We can't say that caselaw is only for adults Beach. It's VERY centred around the children. Child psychologists, assessments taking the child's level of comfort and wishes, etc are at play here.

Children are more resilient than we think and they NEED healthy bonds, routines, consistency, etc with both parents.

Last edited by LovingFather32; 02-01-2017 at 01:36 PM.
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  #466 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2017, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachnana View Post
Case law written for adults by adults. Makes them all feel good about splitting a child's life into 2.

Show me a study or case law that has a child agreeing to 2-2-5-5 or 7-7 and maybe I will rethink my stance.

As it's stands I believe it's something that makes the adults feel good and involved but not the child.

It's rather a schedule that ends up working quite well for children. Children love both parents, equally.

You know the drill.. ready, set , case law!

Quote:
The two younger children want to continue the arrangement of living equally with each of their parents and of sharing all holidays equally
http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc...&resultIndex=1

Quote:
[69] The child loves both parents and wants to spend significant time with both of them. He did not express a preference about where he wanted to live.
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc...&resultIndex=8

Quote:
[98] J has spent time in both parents’ homes and wants to spend equal time with both parents. I find that his views are consistent with the evidence as to the nature and strength of the relationships J has enjoyed with both parents throughout his life.
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  #467 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2017, 01:41 PM
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So now we have a real debate. Enjoying it.

I think it must be an age thing. I am appalled how society has discarded the family unit and embraced the new norm of split families, Two homes and families. Indeed with this being the new norm in the future these children will be burdened with the need to have larger weddings to accommodate the 2 sometimes even 4'extended families they will need to invite. Or they will just throw the whole concept of life partner and getting married out of the window. Back to the hippy days of free Love and communes.

I still believe society has made it too easy to create a family, destroy it and shuffle the results of that family back and forth to make the adults feel good and involved.

Last edited by Beachnana; 02-01-2017 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 02-01-2017, 01:48 PM
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I think it must be an age thing. I am appalled how out society has discarded the family unit and embraced the new norm of split families, Two homes and families.
It certainly isn't the way it used to be. None of my friends' parents are still together. This is precisely why caselaw is changing .. which in turn will eventually change legislation.

I'll skim down the other side of the totem pole and agree that a "home base" does work for some. It all depends on the mental health, sensitivity, emtionality, etc of the child in question.

But for the most part, as you can see the caselaw, studies and parliament (who rely heavily on current literature and caselaw) are moving more and more towards equal parenting for a reason ... it is relieving much tension and fostering the bonds and attachment needed for optimal development in to adulthood.
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  #469 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2017, 02:54 PM
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I don't think a new relationship should be considered a material change in circumstances. Relationships are fleeting (cynical but true). This is much like basing an access schedule on someone's shift work schedule - jobs are fleeting too. Plus, material change is further defined as something that was unforeseen at the time of separation and has to significantly change the quality of the parenting or have a large effect on the child. If an access parent has to rely on his/her new partner to fulfill his parenting plan, then I would have concerns as a judge; especially if that access parent was not so involved for years beforehand. Again, it goes to the nuances in a particular case.
It is actually pretty reasonable to assume that both parties will re-partner at some point, so I don't see this as a material change.
I'm sure a whole lot of case law will come our way now....
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Old 02-01-2017, 03:11 PM
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I'm sure a whole lot of case law will come our way now.... [/QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ange71727 View Post
I don't think a new relationship should be considered a material change in circumstances.
I think it would depend on other factors as well. What type of relationship is it? How close and comfortable around each other are they? etc

My daughter has a warm. loving relationship with my g/f, and has for 3 years. She also loves her older step sister very much. Her step sister teaches her social strategies, about emotions, proper behaviour, etc. These 2 are best friends more than sisters.

One would assume that my D5's quality of life may be better than if I were living alone .. or maybe not. Who knows? All I know is that it's very beneficial for her to have a stable, family unit with 2 other females in my home and we make a great team. I think judges and mental health professional's can see that during their assessments also.
Quote:
This is much like basing an access schedule on someone's shift work schedule - jobs are fleeting too
Sorry, I don' see the relationship between shift schedules and a warm, stable family unit with more members to love and confide in. Maybe I missed something.
Quote:
If an access parent has to rely on his/her new partner to fulfill his parenting plan, then I would have concerns as a judge
Many parents have support systems. Judges do not frown upon this .. it actually helps their case.
Quote:
It is actually pretty reasonable to assume that both parties will re-partner at some point, so I don't see this as a material change.
Judges usually say "A material change in a parents life ... is a material change in the child's life". It directly affects it.

In the few caselaws I've posted .. the fathers were near 50/50 already for many years and the judges saw new home renovations (or homes) and new partners with warm relationships with the child. They were all considered Material Changes of Circumstance.

I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. Just my opinion combined with experience and case law.

Last edited by LovingFather32; 02-01-2017 at 03:16 PM.
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