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Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

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  #361 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2017, 11:00 PM
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Hey - I'm not ignoring you posts!

Dealing with a total meltdown which started with 'Mommy! I don't remember when we were a family anymore!' (*cue tears*) and dealing with a 6 year-old crying for 2 hours straight about how he doesn't have a 'real' family, that he hates living in an apartment and he wants to move back to the house, and telling him over and over that mommy and daddy love him very much, we are your parents, just not a couple, and that he has a family with hearts all over the city, just not under one roof, (I tried the 2 houses! 2 birthdays! thing LovingFather and he wasn't buying it! Gah!!) and I'm emotionally a wreck. I need to call his dad and figure out how we can best tackle this (it happened over Christmas too..).

Sorry, just not in a typing / debate mood. I'll check back in few days when I'm not sobbing into a tea towel and eating my feelings.

This is so hard, guys
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  #362 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2017, 11:13 PM
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Wow, I feel for you Enscrolled. It must be hard hearing your kids say stuff like that. Remind them that "so many" kids have 2 homes now-a-days, that they're not alone. Sounds like your child has memories of you and dad in the same house and misses you guys together.....that's tough. Keep reminding them that they "do" have a family..and a great one.

Remind them that Family isn't about a location, it's about having an awesome mom and dad who sees them, plays with them, takes care of them and loves them with all their heart.

Take a deep breath, give your kids a huge hug and let them know all will be okay.

Sorry you're going through that.
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  #363 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2017, 11:29 PM
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Thanks.

Sorry to hijack the thread.

PS. His dad isn't answering his phone / texts. Sigh.
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  #364 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2017, 12:40 AM
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ensorcelled so sorry to hear you're going through such a tough time. It must be unbearable to see your child in this state. Friend of mine aptly referred to children as "little guilt boxes" and I believe that is probably true in your situation as is the case with others.

You are a loving, caring parent. You have made decision which you did so with the best intentions of ALL of your family, including yourself. You have to stay strong and focused on the future. Your ex will have to deal with the drama at his end. For all you know he already has but is too proud to admit this to you.

Don't beat yourself up. By tomorrow morning your son will likely be immersed in a cartoon and be thinking of other things. The change of living environment (from a house to an apartment) shouldn't be a big deal to a kid of that age if you have taken care to ensure he has all of his favorite things. Some people (military families for example) have to adapt to frequent household changes. Perhaps there is some literature that you can access to give you some ideas? I assume the change of lifestyle (from house to apartment) is fairly recent? Also keep in mind that children do listen to adult telephone conversations. If you are blabbing on the phone to a friend about how terrible your current living situation then it is reasonable that your child might be picking up something from what he has heard from you or perhaps someone else? I wouldn't go around interrogating anyone but it might be worthwhile finding out where the concern about change from a 'house to an apartment' is coming from. That just doesn't make sense to me for a child that age.

I certainly wouldn't be calling my ex over something like this. (That's just my opinion though)
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  #365 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2017, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
I really don't want to make this thread about you Ange....but you and others keep bringing your case up....so I'll post my thoughts.

If your ex has been at almost 50/50 for all this time, that would mean that he's obviously involved with the kids. They're there almost half the time.

Despite your claims that he's "harmed" (please try not to say you didn't say that) your kids for many years (you've kept notes on his terrible parenting you say), now you claim he hasn't been heavily involved in their life.

I read a ton of caselaw where one parent tries that (including my ex). The judge may tell you exactly what I did. He's been almost 50/50 for 8 years....how can he not be involved if he's been almost 50/50 for 8 years?

He's been heavily involved whether you like it or not. If you've been involved a bit more in certain aspects... that still doesn't mean the kids should miss an opportunity for a 50/50 regime with 2 loving parents.

I can almost guarantee he will show up with pics and documents of he and the kids doing activities, receipts, etc. Be ready for that. If he wasn't as involved in academics, that doesn't mean he hasn't in other parts of life.


That's ok, it shouldn't be about my case. I just find that this thread is heavily biased in favour of anyone seeking 50/50 when it's not always best for the kids. It's not just me either - there are other posters who feel this way. Can you not agree that sometimes the 50/50 seeker is just doing it for money? Can you not admit that maybe, just maybe, it's not all about the hard work parenting but rather about the money savings? You don't want to talk about money but I believe it motivates many parents going to court over their kids. Who really pays the price for that? Probably the kids.
I totally agree with you that 50/50 should be the starting point. If my husband and I should separate tomorrow, he would want nothing less and neither would I. I have a huge problem with people who sign off on their kids being with one parent because they need to keep up their partying, sleeping around, or because kids just cramp their style. Even the "they should spend their tender years with mom" argument is crap and these were my ex's words to me years ago. It shouldn't be easy for them if they regret it later on. They are asking to change an established routine because they suddenly feel differently about their kids? Not every kid is going to be good with that.
I am not saying every 50/50 seeker should be denied. It is possible that people can change. I just don't think you should suggest that maximum contact is always best. The research may show it but every case is different and it shouldn't be generalized. Quality vs. quantity I say.
Kids can thrive in many different arrangements. They are resilient, as you say.


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  #366 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2017, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
Naa, yo're just throwing unsupported, made up facts out there. Studies show that individuals with maximum contact with both parents have a better sense of identity, self- concept (all the self's) and form healthier attachments in relationships themselves.
Are there any studies that examine the quality of parenting? An excellent parent can do more good for a child with only 20% time than a poor parent can do even if they have 80%.

I know someone who has about 80% custody, because one parent was just disinterested in the toddlers at the time of separation. Classic EoW situation. Years later, now that the children are older, and are more independent, the other parent is finally keen to take them more, but the children complain that they are just left to their own devices and they miss out on activities for this.

How is it good for these children to have to be at the other parent's house more? Especially if it means less money available at the home they do thrive at?

The dads arguing on here are, unsurprisingly, interested in 50-50 because THEY are involved parents who want as much time with their kids as possible for parenting purposes. But that does not mean that there are not parents out there who don't.
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  #367 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Ange71727 View Post
I have a huge problem with people who sign off on their kids being with one parent because they need to keep up their partying, sleeping around, or because kids just cramp their style. Even the "they should spend their tender years with mom" argument is crap and these were my ex's words to me years ago. It shouldn't be easy for them if they regret it later on. They are asking to change an established routine because they suddenly feel differently about their kids? Not every kid is going to be good with that.
I am not saying every 50/50 seeker should be denied. It is possible that people can change. I just don't think you should suggest that maximum contact is always best. The research may show it but every case is different and it shouldn't be generalized. Quality vs. quantity I say.
Kids can thrive in many different arrangements. They are resilient, as you say.
I know a situation where one parent has about 80% time because at the time of separation, the other parent was completely disinterested in parenting toddlers (and interested in pursing a child-free lifestyle again). Now that the children are older, more independent, this other parent finally wants, and is getting, more time, but the children complain that they are left to their own devices at the other home and missing activities for this. This increased access time isn't actually resulting in increased quality time with the other parent. I'm not sure what advice to provide here.
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  #368 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2017, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rioe View Post
Are there any studies that examine the quality of parenting? An excellent parent can do more good for a child with only 20% time than a poor parent can do even if they have 80%.

I know someone who has about 80% custody, because one parent was just disinterested in the toddlers at the time of separation. Classic EoW situation. Years later, now that the children are older, and are more independent, the other parent is finally keen to take them more, but the children complain that they are just left to their own devices and they miss out on activities for this.

How is it good for these children to have to be at the other parent's house more? Especially if it means less money available at the home they do thrive at?

The dads arguing on here are, unsurprisingly, interested in 50-50 because THEY are involved parents who want as much time with their kids as possible for parenting purposes. But that does not mean that there are not parents out there who don't.


Exactly! Kudos to the dads who want to increase quality time with their kids. It's not always the case though.


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  #369 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2017, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rioe View Post
I know a situation where one parent has about 80% time because at the time of separation, the other parent was completely disinterested in parenting toddlers (and interested in pursing a child-free lifestyle again). Now that the children are older, more independent, this other parent finally wants, and is getting, more time, but the children complain that they are left to their own devices at the other home and missing activities for this. This increased access time isn't actually resulting in increased quality time with the other parent. I'm not sure what advice to provide here.


My fears exactly....


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  #370 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2017, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ange71727 View Post
I just find that this thread is heavily biased in favour of anyone seeking 50/50 when it's not always best for the kids.
And here we're trying to determine who gets to decide what's best for the kids? Warring parents who's subjectivity overamplify negative qualities and minimize good qualities of the OP? Naaa....Judges who have to sift through 100 affidavits of garbage and somehow decide? Naaa. I think Tayken had it correct when he mentioned including more mental health pro's.

Tayken, myslef and a million readers arn't biased in favor of 50/50, we're looking at the "facts" and seems to us that in many case it is actually the best scenario for many reasons.

You keep saying it's not always best for the kids....and we'll KEEP agreeing.
We're talking about "in general".

Quote:
Can you not agree that sometimes the 50/50 seeker is just doing it for money?
Can you see how you're disallowing the 40% threshold (1 day) sure looks like you're avoiding it for financial reason also?

Did you read my caselaw. The mom there tried the same thing, saying he stopped paying CS in order to pressure her in to 50/50. The judge slammed her and gave him 50/50.

Yes of course some do it for money....peeps who dont want the OP to reach the 40% included or else CS would be affected(Hmmm). Hey...some people even vote for Trump. All sorts of people out there. It's important that you understand that we're talking in general terms....not everybody.

Quote:
I have a huge problem with people who sign off on their kids being with one parent because they need to keep up their partying, sleeping around, or because kids just cramp their style.
Or spending thousands in court trying to have an equal relationship with his kids. Have you followed your ex daily? You know he parties every night? Even if he did....he's been at 50/50 for 8 YEARS...so he's not sleeping or partying that much...try again. Have you ever made a mistake? Have you ever partied or slept in? Should we not allow you an equal relationship with your kids?

How can you hate someone, point out every bad quality, say he's "HARMED" your kids for 8 years....but let him be there at almost 50/50 for 8 years.....the second he wants a bit more time for an equal relationship ...BOOM...lets spend our kids education money in court? Yes...this crap is making me biased...it's disgusting to me....sorry.

Quote:
It shouldn't be easy for them if they regret it later on.
Put your thinking cap on becasue Im going to ask you a zinger here.

Imagine that it was you who made some poor decisions VERY EARLY (remember he's been involved for 8 years...your argument is digging deep...for nothing...the judge won't want to discuss who changed diapers more...they're almost teens.).

You wake up one day with your pillow case soaked in tears and you want to be the best parent that you can. SO you do. You're now in the kids lives for 8 years at almost 50/50 and you LOVE it. You finally get the reno's done on your home, you have a good, stable relationship with your new partner...and just want an equal relationship with our kids.

Ange.......should your ex give you a chance for that extra day or 2? Or go to a big, expensive war with you? Which one is it?

Quote:
They are asking to change an established routine because they suddenly feel differently about their kids?
Routine won't be changed much. He's been almost 50/50 for 8 years already.

Also, their routines will be changing big time as they transition in to teenagehood ...trust me. They'll need the support of both parents as much as possible.

Quote:
Not every kid is going to be good with that.
Especially if one parent speaks negatively of the other parent and records them. Parents have to try VERY hard to keep their personal feelings aside.

Quote:
I just don't think you should suggest that maximum contact is always best.
Do you actually read the posts? I'll give you $1000 if you can find any post where I said "Maximum Contact" is ALWAYS best. Never said that...geez.

It's not absolute...but preferred in a vast majority of cases and backed up by an insurmountable amount of literature. There's a reason parliament has coined it the single most important component in which to consider.

Quote:
The research may show it but every case is different and it shouldn't be generalized
Yes, every case has to be analyzed ..... but in GENERAL, based on the literature, parliament, caselaw etc...it's the best way to go.

What I don't want are posters reading your story and thinking that they have to have a huge, costly court battle over a few days extra access becasue they ca't stand the notion of dad being an equal parent.

Where's the CAS records? Where's the 24(4) violence and history of past abuse? Those are the tests that the judges rely on the most in considering on'es ability to act as a parent.

You need to stop making it sound like he just entered the kids life. He's been here for 8 years almost 50/50....very involved father. The kids are hitting turbulent teens soon and will need to confide in you both as much as possible. I would argue that as an MCC to the core.

Quote:
Quality vs. quantity I say
Awesome....so you're not hung up on "quantity"...so give him an equal relationship then and focus on the quality. (If you want to deny him more access, I wouldn't say what you just said in court....or the judge will reply with what I said.

Now, lets bounce back to the literature regarding quality Vs. Quantity:

Quality Vs. Quantity:

Interestingly, many studies showed that "QUALITY" was directly correlated with "QUANTITY" of time kids spend with parent.

Bauserman, R. (2012) and Fabricius, W.V. et al (2011) found that:
Quote:
There is a direct correlation between quantity of time and quality of parent-child relationships, as high quality relationships between parents and children are not possible without sufficient, routine time to develop and sustain a quality relationship".
Here are some findings:

Quote:
Child development experts have written that psychologically, the quality of attachment relationships is a major factor associated with the well-being of very young children. Thus some believe that the quality of parent-child relationships counts for much more than merely quantity of time that children spend with each parent after divorce. But children form close bonds with those who care for them, in their first year of life and beyond. This suggests that quantity of contact is at least as important as quality.
Again, these studies have been replicated many many times and across different cultures, so they're highly reliable and valid.

Just be careful before assuming quality is better than quantity. If you really feel that then who cares about the "quantity" that you ex has with the kids anyways...stop denying him equal relationship.

Kids are entering the wonderful years of teenagehood .. a new chapter in life. Let dad be an equal parent in that new chapter. He's begging to be.

Quote:
Kids can thrive in many different arrangements. They are resilient, as you say.
Yes, but in general, they thrive best when there is maximum contact with both parents. That's not just my opinion ... it's being supported by a ton of material. (remember, in general...not for everyone...not absolute). If I have to hear one more time "It's not for every child"..lol gah! We KNOW it's not for every child...but in general!


Sources:
Bauserman, R. (2012). "A meta-analysis of parental satisfaction, adjustment, and conflict in joint custody and sole custody following divorce," Journal of Divorce and Remarriage, 53, 464-488.

Fabricius, W.V. et al (2011). “Parenting time, parent conflict, parent-child relationships, and children’s physical health.” In Kuehnle, K. & Drozd, L. (Eds.), Parenting Plan Evaluations: Applied Research for the Family Court. New York: Oxford University Press.

Last edited by LovingFather32; 01-29-2017 at 10:14 AM.
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