Ottawa Divorce .com Forums


User CP

New posts

Advertising

  Ottawa Divorce .com Forums > Main Category > Political Issues

Political Issues This forum is for discussing the political aspects of divorce: reform to divorce laws, men's rights, women's rights, injustices in the divorce system, etc.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #281 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2017, 11:38 PM
arabian's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 9,924
arabian will become famous soon enough
Default

I really think your post makes sense ensorcelled... logical really.
Reply With Quote
  #282 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2017, 11:39 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 102
ensorcelled has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

PS. I encourage everyone to read Dr. Emery's books. He's my guru! He did a great podcast here: http://thenewfamily.com/2016/07/podc...one-childhood/
Reply With Quote
  #283 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2017, 11:42 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 102
ensorcelled has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by arabian View Post
I really think your post makes sense ensorcelled... logical really.
Thanks. I'm not trying to say that 50-50 is impossible, but that we all need to put a little water in our wine and check ourselves and our egos (this applies to me too!). I was actually quite shocked at the 'NO. It's 50-50 and NOTHING ELSE!' tone of this thread (and others). Really? We can do better and we should.

Also, I'm assuming (guessing?) most people on here have 9-5 jobs. I would be curious to hear from people who do shiftwork or have odd work hours as to how they manage their parenting time.
Reply With Quote
  #284 (permalink)  
Old 01-26-2017, 11:58 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,681
trinton has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

I still don't understand why dad can't have Fridays or Saturdays. Does he work on those days, every week?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #285 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2017, 12:09 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,681
trinton has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
Thank you triton and LovingFather32 for your comments.



-Kids don't count overnights. Kids experience parenting not as a pie to be divided in halves, but as the quality time they experience with each parent.

-
Consistent quality time. Not that every other weekend lawyer invented light bulb. Read up on attachment theory.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post

-I agree with Tayken upthread that Family Law needs to be taken out of the hands of judges and into those of mental health professionals or people trained to deal with this kind of situation.

-
Custody should be joint regardless and mental health professionals should deal with and access issues leaving the courts to deal with property division. Child support should be eliminated in most cases where both parents are working.



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Last edited by trinton; 01-27-2017 at 12:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #286 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2017, 12:21 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 102
ensorcelled has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trinton View Post
I still don't understand why dad can't have Fridays or Saturdays. Does he work on those days, every week?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Well...that's where things are getting interesting.

When we started this process, that's what we agreed to. He's a party animal with a 'the weekend starts on Thursday whooo!' ethos. Like fak I would have a then 4 year old around that and we came up with our current plan. He also has an allergy to extracurricular activities and refuses to drive our son to our mutually-agreed upon activities because, well, hangovers and that. I actually thought it took a serious amount of self-awareness at the time for him to admit that the current arrangement was best and commend him for doing what was right at the time for our son.

His family got whiff of this and they are working behind the scenes to get him to a more 'traditional' model and we're in discussion to change things (his family meddling isn't new, as you can imagine). He also has a girl-friend who wants to harmonize the two parenting plans. The kicker for me is our child who is adamant he wants to keep the current plan but at 6, I suspect he won't have much of a say. I'm not opposed to weekends, I just want our child's schedule to be adhere'd to. Make sense?
Reply With Quote
  #287 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2017, 12:25 AM
Tayken's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 6,563
Tayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant futureTayken has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
Our situation isn't unique or anything - our child thrives on a consistent schedule and quite frankly, I find schedules like 2-2-3, 2-2-5-5 completely insane. Would YOU like to change residences three times a week? If not, why are we asking the same of our children?
Actually I disagree. Consistency is a more important factor in a schedule. Most children figure out the 2-2-5-5 schedule quite easily. As well, we ask children to leave their residence and go to school. I don't see the difference. Especially if you say in your post they don't count overnights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
-I believe in the maximum contact principle, and I believe in shared parenting, I just think we've gone overboard with exact percentages as the guiding principle.
Valid point but, unfortunately the FCSG is the reason for the "percentages" argument and not the CLRA or Divorce Act. The disconnect between the CLRA, Divorce Act and FCSG is awful. They put parents in competition over the % because of the rules around offset child support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
-Kids don't count overnights. Kids experience parenting not as a pie to be divided in halves, but as the quality time they experience with each parent.
I don't disagree but, the court doesn't agree with you. So you can wax poetic about all this but, the FCSG, CLRA and other legislation doesn't reflect this sad to say. So, the soft psychology view is nice and all but, not a reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
-I agree with Tayken upthread that Family Law needs to be taken out of the hands of judges and into those of mental health professionals or people trained to deal with this kind of situation.
I am not saying judges shouldn't be involved. I am all for law reform in family law to provide better tools for judges to move cases forward faster and to make more striking orders without having to rely upon so much nonsense hearsay (aka evidence).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
-People should be mandated to deal with each other as adults, NOT parallel parenting. (I have no idea how to go about reforming this, btw, but I do have some ideas..)
Again, high expectations. As you have not dealt with parents in conflicted situations (I assume) then this is easy to say... But, parallel parenting is a well researched topic and a great solution to reduce conflict.

How would you mandate a parent to behave? Oh ya. You would make a detailed court order for them to follow because they can't behave. This is known as parallel parenting. Also, it works rather well. The return of parents who have properly written orders for parallel parenting have been observed to reduce the return of these parents to courts. Why? Because they need the instruction on how to behave. If they didn't... They wouldn't be in court!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
-I believe you can never really divorce your ex-spouse when there are children involved. People who think they can just ride off into the sunset without ever having to speak to 'that (insert expletive)' are not ready for co-parenting.
Co-parenting is a myth I wish the soft psychologist would drop. There is just parenting. Co-parenting was created to get fathers involved in parenting in intact families. It is not a legal term nor should it ever be used at one. It is a soft concept best applied to parents who can cooperate independent of the legal status of their relationship. If parents truly could "co-parent" then... they probably would be still together. The fact that they are not together already makes the whole term meaningless.

Joint custody is the term and guess what? The presumption is that parents have joint custody until such time they agree otherwise or a court orders. To mix the concept of custody and residency (aka access) into a soft psychology term of "co-parenting" that has no legal grounding only serves to confuse people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
-I think parenting plans are living things that needs to change as the children get older and their needs change.
They are documents. They don't live. But, they do need to be updated. But, they can be written to evolve. There are great patterns so you can put an agreement in place that can last well past university. The only change that would be impact them is if a child suffers an unfortunate event or disability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
-I was actually really shocked to read the cases upthread about a dad going in front of a judge because he 'only' had 40% and was demanding 50% (I'm paraphrasing). The kids have a schedule, routing and a home/ headquarters that they are accustomed to.
Parents regularly move, change employment, etc. Are you suggesting that kids can't adapt to change? Who has lived in the same home their whole childhood. Very few people in fact. We don't have a pack of lunatics running around as a result. I give children more credit. They are WAY MORE resilient to change than adults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
Divorce is hard enough - why are you inserting your ego into it by dragging someone to court for 10%? I seriously doubt his children's opinion of him or their long-term relationship will be negatively impacted by whatever time he felt he was missing out on.
I don't disagree. But, my alternative view is why would the parent settle for anything less than 50% if that 10% mattered so much? It is petty. It is hard to say if it is "ego" driven. It is emotionally connected to some need but, it is not for us to evaluate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
Last - I work at a University and while I'm not a counsellor, my job often requires me to ask about students about their home situation. I'm always fascinated by how what they tell me about their parents divorce and how it has affected them, even after they've moved out. I would caution anyone who is approaching this with a fairness or entitlement lens.
Change effects everyone. With 50% of relationships ending it is more common than uncommon. It is a reality that our society has to deal with. Brushing it under the rug with soft psychology helps no one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ensorcelled View Post
No one is saying you're a bad parent, just that your children are not pies who are to be divided in half just because your relationship broke down. The rancour and costs associated are, IMO, not worth it for all involved, especially the kids.
It only takes ONE parent to fight in family court. You seem to forget this it seems.

Good Luck!
Tayken
Reply With Quote
  #288 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2017, 12:30 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 102
ensorcelled has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by trinton View Post
Consistent quality time. Not that every other weekend lawyer invented light bulb. Read up on attachment theory.




Custody should be joint regardless and mental health professionals should deal with and access issues leaving the courts to deal with property division. Child support should be eliminated. Oh wait, family law is a multi billion dollar industry that destroys children for profit.



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Sorry - I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that only with EOW arrangements (like 2-2-3) can people form attachments to the other parent? Or that the Wednesday and Every Other Weekend schedule isn't good for attachments?

This is anecdotal but my dad was a shift worker who did the afternoon beat (so 3-11pm) for decades. When he was laid off he worked out West or in the NWT. I barely, if ever, saw him. I'm not saying that to be facetious but I can recall going weeks with seeing him a handful of times (and we were living in the same house!) and then months of him being gone entirely. He had a learning disability and could not have a regular 9-5 job. I don't love him any less or have a worse attachment to him. I think what he did for our family was brave and I commend him for showing me a work ethic that I sadly did not inherit. I'm sure many kids whose parents are working multiple or shift jobs tell similar stories.
Reply With Quote
  #289 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2017, 12:36 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 160
vocalfather is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeacefulMoments View Post
The MOMENT abuse is not verified the child should be returned to the other parent (who was accused) as the accusing parent should be deemed not fit to properly parent in my view. If you can do that to another human being (a loving parent) and more importantly a CHILD, you require a heavy penalty and supervised visits.
AMEN to this post. After being accused of sexually molesting my children, alongside other family members and now being dragged 6 years through the court system alongside my kids, damn right the other person should not have 50/50 custody. The reality is, someone who is willing to go this far to alienate the other parent alongside purposely not working or being gainfully employed despite having a full time job for 18+ years in order to achieve legal aid and to virtually bankrupt the other parent and affect the children for the negative SHOULD lose their kids. Yes, I'm emotional. Yes, my kids don't deserve this. Yes, I've had it. And in these cases, where the other side and the kids are dragged all the way to trial, I can only pray a judge will see through the BS.
Reply With Quote
  #290 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2017, 12:53 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 102
ensorcelled has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

Sorry for the crappy colours..could not figure out the quoting in and quoting out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
Actually I disagree. Consistency is a more important factor in a schedule. Most children figure out the 2-2-5-5 schedule quite easily. As well, we ask children to leave their residence and go to school. I don't see the difference. Especially if you say in your post they don't count overnights.

Again, would YOU go back and forth between residences three times a week? I would also never go 5 days (and neither would his dad) without seeing our child. But again, this is our preference.

Valid point but, unfortunately the FCSG is the reason for the "percentages" argument and not the CLRA or Divorce Act. The disconnect between the CLRA, Divorce Act and FCSG is awful. They put parents in competition over the % because of the rules around offset child support.

I need to go google those acronyms *hides head in shame*

I don't disagree but, the court doesn't agree with you. So you can wax poetic about all this but, the FCSG, CLRA and other legislation doesn't reflect this sad to say. So, the soft psychology view is nice and all but, not a reality.

So..would not putting mental health experts be part of a solution? Creating parenting plans via assessment vs. court orders? I'm asking sincerely.

I am not saying judges shouldn't be involved. I am all for law reform in family law to provide better tools for judges to move cases forward faster and to make more striking orders without having to rely upon so much nonsense hearsay (aka evidence).

Agree.

Again, high expectations. As you have not dealt with parents in conflicted situations (I assume) then this is easy to say... But, parallel parenting is a well researched topic and a great solution to reduce conflict.

My child's father and I are not best friends by any stretch, we use OFW because of communication issues, but PP is horrible for the children As anyone who had to live through it.

How would you mandate a parent to behave? Oh ya. You would make a detailed court order for them to follow because they can't behave. This is known as parallel parenting. Also, it works rather well. The return of parents who have properly written orders for parallel parenting have been observed to reduce the return of these parents to courts. Why? Because they need the instruction on how to behave. If they didn't... They wouldn't be in court!

I think I said it earlier, but if you need a judge to decide a parenting plan, you're not ready for prime time.

Co-parenting is a myth I wish the soft psychologist would drop. There is just parenting. Co-parenting was created to get fathers involved in parenting in intact families. It is not a legal term nor should it ever be used at one. It is a soft concept best applied to parents who can cooperate independent of the legal status of their relationship. If parents truly could "co-parent" then... they probably would be still together. The fact that they are not together already makes the whole term meaningless.

That's so interesting! I completely agree 100%. I hate the word co-parenting but like 'irregardless' *shudder* I think it's here to stay.

Joint custody is the term and guess what? The presumption is that parents have joint custody until such time they agree otherwise or a court orders. To mix the concept of custody and residency (aka access) into a soft psychology term of "co-parenting" that has no legal grounding only serves to confuse people.

I think assuming 50-50 is what's best for the kids is putting the cart before the horse.

They are documents. They don't live. But, they do need to be updated. But, they can be written to evolve. There are great patterns so you can put an agreement in place that can last well past university. The only change that would be impact them is if a child suffers an unfortunate event or disability.

Agree!

Parents regularly move, change employment, etc. Are you suggesting that kids can't adapt to change? Who has lived in the same home their whole childhood. Very few people in fact. We don't have a pack of lunatics running around as a result. I give children more credit. They are WAY MORE resilient to change than adults.

My kid is very sensitive to change. Psychologists and interventions and lots of family meetings when we first separated. He even has trouble falling asleep at hotels or with the grandparents. I moderate a FB group for for co-parents and I find the people who use the 'Kids are resilient!' angle are usually the ones wrecking the most havoc on their lives as a way of absolving guilt or to justify their 'entitlement' of 50%.

I don't disagree. But, my alternative view is why would the parent settle for anything less than 50% if that 10% mattered so much? It is petty. It is hard to say if it is "ego" driven. It is emotionally connected to some need but, it is not for us to evaluate.

Not sure. Maybe one parent lives closer to school? Maybe there are work situations that led to the current agreement and everyone is happy but the parent at 40%? I don't think keeping things the way they are if they're going well is petty at all.

Change effects everyone. With 50% of relationships ending it is more common than uncommon. It is a reality that our society has to deal with. Brushing it under the rug with soft psychology helps no one.

Did I say anything about rug brushing? I believe in putting children FIRST and foremost. And sometimes if that means you need to get 45% or 38% or 61% or whatever, so be it. I'm not really concerned about feelings of fairness.

It only takes ONE parent to fight in family court. You seem to forget this it seems.

And it only takes one to leave the marriage. Putting forward child-focused solutions is better to me than half of the so-called 'alienation' stories I come across (which is really, not actual alienation).

Good Luck!
Tayken
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate it! I know that sounds hackneyed but it's true.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Faulty to assume Shared Parenting: here's why SilverLining Divorce & Family Law 44 06-29-2014 02:41 PM
Velacott's new Bill C-560 (equal parenting) SingingDad Political Issues 16 06-13-2014 04:04 PM
Equal Shared Parenting Mother Divorce & Family Law 56 02-21-2014 05:43 PM
Equal parenting Bill tabled in house of commons SingingDad Divorce & Family Law 1 12-17-2013 09:43 AM
Vellacott celebrates National Child Day with announcement of Equal Parenting bill logicalvelocity Political Issues 7 11-24-2008 07:22 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:52 PM.