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Old 09-17-2012, 10:14 PM
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Default New to this group- Wonder if anyone else has similar situation?

Hi
I am new here....but I have been reading along for a short time.
I have also tried the Internet in general to find anything to help me with my situation but haven't had any luck with any one in a similar situation.

I have been separated from a 10 yr marriage for 1 year now. I have 3 kids under age 7 and am starting the court process after not having any luck with drafting a separation agreement.

The issue I have is this. Yes from day one I have made a higher income than my ex. Through the relationship he had his own business but it never really "showed" to be profitable. He just made enough money to call his for his own use mostly. I work at a family business and have for 27 years.I do not own it .
Through everything I struggled with getting him to apply himself and earn more. I also had a difficult time getting him to help with anything at the house . Half way through the marriage he shut down his business and opened another non-profitable business with a partner, now earning even less than before. At this same time I was having our 3rd child.
I had the bigger income ($65K) and I also took care of everything in relation to the house and children. I was and still am a full time employee and mom.

So now......he has no intentions of paying cs and if I pursue it says hes going all the way in pursuit of spousal support. The kids reside with me and I am their sole supporter and always will be. He sees them alternate weekends.(10% of the time) Btw he works at his one business 16 hrs a week and the other approx 6-8 days a month.
He is physically fit and totally capable of getting employment but just doesnt feel he should have to. He is waiting for a big payout because he says I make a substantial wage and will eventually inherit the business. He has even said that he waited 10 years for this.

I am stressing out and am not sure how long I can go on fighting. I am a believer that all this money being wasted in court and with lawyers is money that can be going towards the kids and their future. He doesn't care. He is borrowing money to fight me.

Sorry this is so long...I am just trying to be precise.

I cannot find very much info on the net where a wife is to pay any spousal support when she in fact has the kids and is providing for them. He was never a stay at home day and rarely was home for the kids.
Of course he wants 1/2 the equity of the matrimonial home that we lived in together for 2.5 years.....the other 8 years of our marriage we lived rent-free in my parents rental.

I am 43 and he is 42.

Any suggestions or reflections would be appreciated. Thanks for reading.
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:40 PM
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google "spousal support" "custodial payor" - that will bring you to the spousal support guidelines for this situation, plus articles and lists of cases about this situation.

Last edited by dinkyface; 09-17-2012 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:45 PM
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Welcome to the funhouse !My ex tried going after me for support too.Thought by under employing himself he could leech off me until the day I died.No that aint happening.The marital home is another kettle of fish altogether.You may have to pay him in order to hold on to it.There is plenty of smart experienced people here who know all about property division-Im sure they will help you out.
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ftmomont View Post
I have been separated from a 10 yr marriage for 1 year now. I have 3 kids under age 7 and am starting the court process after not having any luck with drafting a separation agreement.
My recommendation would be to offer to take the to Mediation, Mediation-Arbitration (Med-Arb) or Arbitration prior to filing an Application with the court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftmomont View Post
The issue I have is this. Yes from day one I have made a higher income than my ex. Through the relationship he had his own business but it never really "showed" to be profitable. He just made enough money to call his for his own use mostly. I work at a family business and have for 27 years.I do not own it.
Congratulations on being the primary income earner. It is not something you should be ashamed of. You succeeded at your career in the best interests of the family. The courts will assess the incomes of both parents on Line 150 of your past 3 years tax returns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftmomont View Post
Through everything I struggled with getting him to apply himself and earn more.
This could be interpreted as "controlling" behavior by you. Unless you have cogent and relevant evidence to backup this blanket statement by you it will be discounted by the judge more than likely. You have to prove your case if you raise this on Application. Not a small feat to do and will inject conflict and a pile of litigation challenges. Approach something this with caution.

Furthermore, he may be at his top earning potential unless you can demonstrate that for the history of your marriage he has chosen to be "underemployed". If you have been the higher income earner for 10 years... This is going to be an incredibly hard case to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftmomont View Post
I also had a difficult time getting him to help with anything at the house.
Again, approach this kind of blanket statement with caution. Just stating this in an affidavit does not mean it is "the truth". These kinds of arguments presented often lead to incredible conflict before the court. I highly recommend you really research what you should consider when presenting this kind of "evidence".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftmomont View Post
Half way through the marriage he shut down his business and opened another non-profitable business with a partner, now earning even less than before. At this same time I was having our 3rd child.
I had the bigger income ($65K) and I also took care of everything in relation to the house and children.
Can you prove that you did "everything in relation to the house and children". Everything, in the view of the court is a VERY strong statement to make. You cut the lawn, shoveled the drive way... When you say that you did EVERYTHING you have to mean everything. List what you did, when you did it, on average how many times a month prior to committing this kind of statement to a court document.

Honestly look at what he has contributed to the house hold prior to making this blanket kind of statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftmomont View Post
I was and still am a full time employee and mom.
Then, you couldn't have done "EVERYTHING". Did the children attend daycare? Did you have a nanny? You may have "felt" like you did everything but, it is a hard (and dangerous) argument that you did "everything" if you are full time employed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftmomont View Post
So now......he has no intentions of paying cs and if I pursue it says hes going all the way in pursuit of spousal support.
You can apply for whatever you want and he can answer and request anything he wants. What you request and what he requests is not really that relevant. What is... Is the **evidence** you bring forward to support your application that you did "everything" and he did "nothing".

Just because you "feel" you did everything doesn't mean that you in fact "did everything". Be very careful with these kinds of blanket statements that are often based on "emotional reasoning" and not "facts". The court makes judgements on "facts" and not "emotional reasoning" or your personal "feelings".

Feelings often can be the death knell for litigants before the court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftmomont View Post
The kids reside with me and I am their sole supporter and always will be. He sees them alternate weekends.(10% of the time) Btw he works at his one business 16 hrs a week and the other approx 6-8 days a month.
How long has the "every other weekend" access been in place. He does realize (i hope) that in this Access configuration he is obligated to pay CS.

I hope you do realize that you may be obligated to pay him SS or a lump sum and are prepared to accept this possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftmomont View Post
He is physically fit and totally capable of getting employment but just doesn't feel he should have to. He is waiting for a big payout because he says I make a substantial wage and will eventually inherit the business. He has even said that he waited 10 years for this.
What he inherits is of no concern to the court as inheritance is not considered in equalization. Especially for something that he will get in the future.

Be very careful with the "rich family" argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftmomont View Post
I am stressing out and am not sure how long I can go on fighting. I am a believer that all this money being wasted in court and with lawyers is money that can be going towards the kids and their future. He doesn't care. He is borrowing money to fight me.
Eventually he will have to pay his debt. If you bring the matter to court you seriously need to consider costs and how "costs are awarded" in family law matters. If you bring a frivolous lawsuit forward based on "beliefs", "emotional reasoning", stress (aka anxiety/fears/worries) and baseless allegations to facts you could find yourself paying *your legal fees* and *his legal fees*.

He also needs to consider this too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftmomont View Post
Sorry this is so long...I am just trying to be precise.
FYI: You are going to have to be MUCH MORE precise and detailed in the evidence you bring forward to court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftmomont View Post
I cannot find very much info on the net where a wife is to pay any spousal support when she in fact has the kids and is providing for them. He was never a stay at home day and rarely was home for the kids.
Again, this may be how you "feel" but, court is not concerned with how you "feel". Family Courts deal with "evidence" and not "feelings". Unless you can bring tangible, cogent and relevant evidence to support ***FACTS*** to backup your generalize statements of belief... You could find yourself in more conflict than you want or can deal with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftmomont View Post
Of course he wants 1/2 the equity of the matrimonial home that we lived in together for 2.5 years.....the other 8 years of our marriage we lived rent-free in my parents rental.
Equalization is just that. 50-50 division of all assets and debts. He has every right to half the equity in the matrimonial home. Welcome to the reality of separation and eventually divorce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftmomont View Post
Any suggestions or reflections would be appreciated. Thanks for reading.
I highly recommend you seek legal counsel to assist you in the matters and arguments you are presenting here. If the other party (parent) has legal counsel they will make mince meat out of the arguments you are presenting here on this forum.

They will come back strong on your application, bring forward detailed affidavits outlining dates, times and relevant and cogent evidence in response to generalized statements of your "personal beliefs" or "feelings" about the matters and what is relevant.

Your situation that you have described is not unique in my personal opinion. In fact, if presented in the format and methodology you are applying as previously stated... Will quickly become minced meat.

Retain a lawyer ASAP in my opinion to help you figure this all out.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:23 PM
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Yeah lol. Welcome to the Funhouse Have you spoken with a Lawyer at all?

Your situation is rather unique, but not unheard of. Where is he living at the moment?

Is he contributing anything to the mat-home? You've closed any/all joint accounts, credit cards etc?

Tayken raised many good points. Go consult w/a lawyer asap. Med-arb would be a good way to go, but hard to say at this point unless he's willing to cooperate.

Last edited by hadenough; 09-17-2012 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post

Then, you couldn't have done "EVERYTHING". Did the children attend daycare? Did you have a nanny? You may have "felt" like you did everything but, it is a hard (and dangerous) argument that you did "everything" if you are full time employed.
Oh? Single and 'only' parents do, so I don't see why it is impossible to fathom a married parent doing so. I think we need to be careful not to paint everyone with the same brush.

Quote:
What he inherits is of no concern to the court as inheritance is not considered in equalization. Especially for something that he will get in the future.

Be very careful with the "rich family" argument.
I read and re-read her post and I *think* she was saying he was implying that SHE would be receiving the family business as an inheritance and that he was happy to drag things out as long as it takes so he can get a piece of it. I think?
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:12 AM
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I do appreciate all advice.
Of course I am still emotional and am just not very good at explaining myself without that emotion getting in the way. I do not want to even go to court...I want to settle but it doesnt look to be happening. A previous settlement agreement was ignored.
I do have a lawyer and had my first CC. The ex lives nearby so far. He hasnt contributed anything to the home or kids since separation (sadly hardly ever....) He claims to make 1300/month yet pays $1200 + in rent.
The realization is he married me because I could be supportive. I am not by any means rich....but I have worked all my life and was taught the values of hard work and saving.
Yes when I say I worked full time thru the marriage and ran the household --I indeed did all I could. I did have a child care provider for the very early years but when I came home I did the child care,laundry, cooking, cleaning etc. I did not document his lack of anything to do at the house-- although I wish I had.
With respect to things like shoveling the driveway etc--those things honestly didnt get done-unless I flagged down a neighbour boy . Many of those years I was the pregnant wife who left the shovel at both ends of the laneway in order to get to the front door. Again--it wasnt what I wanted to do but I didnt have a choice .

Originally Posted by ftmomont
Through everything I struggled with getting him to apply himself and earn more.

Sometimes I feel I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either I'm complacent or controlling.Even my lawyer indicated to me that....I stayed with him in my present situation for 10 years. So yes I encouraged him to work and earn money. I didn't just lay down and let him get the better of me.

As for his earning potential --he did earn three times as much 5 years ago before he switched business ventures. He has since restarted the previous business but it doesnt "show" much income.

I actually know I am not a strong enough fighter to go thru the court process. For my kids--I wish I was. He is a strong willed person and very convincing.He has threathened and bullied this last year.( I have kept the texts)

I am resigning myself to the facts of this and the eventuality.

I do not know what facts to back up or how to back them up. All I know is the wage disparity. But the fact is he is/was not the equivalent of a SAHM ---raising the kids didnt inconvenience him when it came time for his business. He didnt stay home with the kids. He was self supportive when I met him-albeit it he enjoyed me supporting the family.
I am trying to understand his entitlement to SS.

I am truly at a loss of what to do......
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:14 AM
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"I read and re-read her post and I *think* she was saying he was implying that SHE would be receiving the family business as an inheritance and that he was happy to drag things out as long as it takes so he can get a piece of it. I think?"

* I haven't re-read it but that is also how I understood the OP's comment.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:15 AM
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Yes blink--he has been waiting for the inheritance ( of my family's business) and has already brought up the issue in his initial papers from the lawyer. My parents have to prove that I am not a shareholder...
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkandimgone View Post
Oh? Single and 'only' parents do, so I don't see why it is impossible to fathom a married parent doing so. I think we need to be careful not to paint everyone with the same brush.
OP has admitted to emotionalism in the matter and not having a full grip on the state of things already. It is hard to seperate fact from emotion and the OP is going to need to really focus on facts. Emotions run high and this is why family law needs better integration with the health care system. Lawyers are often the worst people to talk at a time like this because they themselves are not trained professionally in the areas of mental health to properly identify a "fact" from an "emotional reason" from their clients.

Not painting anyone with the "same brush". These are all baseless allegations often raised before the court that drive more conflict than resolve problems. Just identifying the challenges in the "evidence" the OP has to present to bring "fact" to potential "emotional reasons".

Venting here is fine and seeking support for baseless allegations that have no grounding in fact won't get you much before the court... Other than more conflict.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkandimgone View Post
I read and re-read her post and I *think* she was saying he was implying that SHE would be receiving the family business as an inheritance and that he was happy to drag things out as long as it takes so he can get a piece of it. I think?
It was a confusing statement. More clarification was provided. More than likely the other party to the litigation asked for full and frank financial disclosure in accordance with Rule 13 of the Family Law Rules. It now falls on the OP to demonstrate to the court that they have no financial ownership of the company in question and that they are only an employee and hold no other trust in the company.

More than likely a Form 20 request in accordance with the disclosure requirements for financial disclosure in accordance with Rule 13 was executed by the other party. This comes with a notice that should the other party not comply with the financial request it will be taken to motion or they may be ordered to go for oral (viva voce) disclosure. To someone in an emotional state as described by the OP this can be overwhelming and the forms are incredibly terse in how they are configured.

If the OP does not have a financial relationship (ownership) to the company in question a letter from the director of the company will state this and can easily be provided. It would be best to come from the company accounting firm and/or legal counsel.

It is par-for-the-course unfortunately as the obligation to provide the evidence for full and frank financial disclosure falls on the litigant for which the request is being made. If they don't satisfy the request a motion can be brought forward and an order can be made for this disclosure.

See how the cycle of conflict before the court can be emotionally devastating. You think you are getting divorced... But, now your parent's and other family members companies are dragged into the matter.

Often, people with fight back with things like this, which is a standard disclosure request with "bad parenting" affidavits etc... Hopefully the OP has good counsel that assists in sorting out and identifying cogent and relevant evidence for their client.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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